Carb installation clearance issues

[86commuter]

Hi all,

New owner of an '86 1200. Rebuilt the carbs, removed all emissions per Bruce's article, and have been putting things back together today. Broke a tab off the rear air box trying to get it in....not to mention it wants to grab the fuel line, rad overflow, etc. I can get the box with the boots and spring collars on in, but now cannot get the boots over the carbs....I'll get one side, the other side will pop off, even if the spring collar is on. This has to be one of the worst designs in terms of access that I've ever seen. Any help would be appreciated, including mods to the box, frame(haha), etc. I've used white lithium grease and not sure if it made it better or worse. Also, how many mounting points does the rear box have? I see what looks like a mount of sorts on the bottom center of it (near the tube that goes to crankcase), but don't know what it connects to. Thanks.


Impatient

[Nails]

This annoyed me, too. As always, better to be patient.
First off, it's a lot easier to get the carbs off the second time. Pull them to the left -- the cables and hoses are much more accessible.
It isn't actually necessary to remove that airbox. The carbs can be coaxed between the boots.
To put the boots on (front or rear), I line up one side, hold it firm, then line up and push the other side. Like I say, it all went a lot easier after the first time.
Just two bolts, as I recall. The radiator overflow tabs into the bottom back of that airbox. I don't think it's necessary to remove this, either.

[Mr Jensee]

I haven't had to remove my carbs yet but I did have to on a ZRX1100 Kawasaki. They would only come out and go in on the left side of the bike. I found heating up the boots with a heat gun softened and made them more pliable. I also had to pull them real hard toward the rear of the bike to get all four boots on the carbs. And the ZRX carbs were bigger than the Voyager's. I think Kawasaki has a thing about installing and removing carbs on the left side. It is good to have a spray can of silicone to use as a lubricant getting the boots on both sides of the carbs to work. You might want to give these tips a try.

[Jimvoyager01]

I had to make some custom tools when i put the carbs back in on my 1200,,,best of luck

[86commuter]

This annoyed me, too. As always, better to be patient.
First off, it's a lot easier to get the carbs off the second time. Pull them to the left -- the cables and hoses are much more accessible.
It isn't actually necessary to remove that airbox. The carbs can be coaxed between the boots.
To put the boots on (front or rear), I line up one side, hold it firm, then line up and push the other side. Like I say, it all went a lot easier after the first time.
Just two bolts, as I recall. The radiator overflow tabs into the bottom back of that airbox. I don't think it's necessary to remove this, either.

Thanks Nails--I will try this again tomorrow, as I had to take a break for a while today lol. Right now it will only run with the choke fully engaged....is there a way to richen/lean the mixture on these carbs? I see the previous owner took the plugs out from where they blocked the pilot screws, but the manual says nothing about changing the mixture so I wonder. Either way, learning a lot on this bike and can't way to ride it :)

[86commuter]

I haven't had to remove my carbs yet but I did have to on a ZRX1100 Kawasaki. They would only come out and go in on the left side of the bike. I found heating up the boots with a heat gun softened and made them more pliable. I also had to pull them real hard toward the rear of the bike to get all four boots on the carbs. And the ZRX carbs were bigger than the Voyager's. I think Kawasaki has a thing about installing and removing carbs on the left side. It is good to have a spray can of silicone to use as a lubricant getting the boots on both sides of the carbs to work. You might want to give these tips a try.

Thanks Mr. Jensee--I will certainly be trying all these things tomorrow. I've been using white lithium grease but I think silicone will work better and will be less...greasy haha. I don't have a heat gun but I do have a crappy hair dryer I keep in the garage for these things.

[86commuter]

Thanks.

[Nails]

the manual says nothing about changing the mixture

Keihins are very adjustable. Alternative main jets, pilot (slow) jets, and pilot screws. Easy to screw up, but lots of info on the web. I noticed a lot of info from the KLR crowd.

I just fabricated a pilot screw driver to take on the road, from an Allen wrench and washer. Ground the Allen into a screw blade on each side of the L, oriented 90 degrees different. The length is just a little longer than necessary to reach the screw and be able to swing under the float bowl (it was a big Allen). Cut a slot in the washer and welded it out from the corner of the L, so I can push the screw driver up and into the screw slot. My carbs are off the bike now, so I haven't actually tried it out yet. But the general approach worked on a different Keihin on my daughter's dirt bike.

I'll travel with this and a dental mirror. Kinda chunky, but I bet I'll be able to adjust them when I make big elevation changes.

[86commuter]

Thanks Nails and everyone else who has commented so far, it's very appreciated.

My next question is this: Will this bike run "normal" so to speak without the surge box and front air box on? Reason I ask is because when I got this bike the bike would only (and BARELY) while being fully choked. After cleaning and reassembling carbs, it still will only run on full choke, albeit much better than before. I would like to leave the air boxes off to pull the carbs and adjust the pilot jets in or out to see if that helps, but will be able to do so much easier without the boxes in my way. Eventually, I will be making a tool for it like Nails recommended, just want to get it to run on it's own steam decently first.

Thoughts?

[Nails]

You can't synch the carbs with the air filter box in place. But to tune the carbs correctly, it all needs to be there.

You clearly have a problem if it needs choke to stay alive. Having more air (no filter) presumably would make matters worse.

I suspect a fuel-side problem, like not having the float height adjusted correctly. Or a kaflutchy pilot screw seat. Or some fuel circuit plugged. Just cleaning in solvent might not get it.

Others have strongly recommended sending the carbs to Carl Leo. If similar problems cropped up after I cleaned mine (in an ultrasonic cleaner), that's what I'd consider.

[Avidrider62]

Pilot jets are clogged. (idle circuit) why it will only run on choke. Carl would recommend new float needles. The springs for the float needle get weak, making it hard to adjust floats right. I learned that from hard knocks. Sync the carbs is adjusted by seeing vacuum on each carb. It may run a little ruffduring, but I've synched mine with out the box on, seems perfect so far in the performance. Been two years.

[86commuter]

Thanks fellas,

Well I guess it's either Carl or take them some place locally if I can find someone who knows what they are doing. I would be tempted to buy a rebuild kit but just rebuilt a Carter B&B for '50 Plymouth and THAT still isn't running right (though it is running better). Carbs are something I have not mastered, and I may just be in the mood to pay someone else at this point :/

[Studawg]

I just finished doing this ,twice on my 1988. The whole job is easier if you get a "springhook". It looks like a crochet hook(copier techs use it.)You can pull those spots on the rear boots right over the carb intake where they fold back, works slick. I also lubed the boots on the manifold with a little WD40, had them in after about 30 minutes.Do yourself a favor and order 6 o-rings for all the fuel intake pieces from the main fuel line and between the carbs. I had a major fuel leak after the first installation(major bummer). Back on the road today though!http://www.crawfordtool.com/Tools-Sprin ... 25006.html

[cranky]

... worked at IBM servicing computers / and attached stuff, use spring hooks a LOT!!!
They are one handy item!!! Ever try to get a knot outta a string? That spring hook
is great!!! And many other uses... when I left the service job, I got to take my
tool bag, I made SURE I had a bunch'a them things!!!!

This is the FIRST time I've seen them outside of IBM! Thanks, and many
others will thank you..... if they try one!

BTW, another very handy and much used tool is hemostat clamps!!!
http://tinyurl.com/y9yah7ns

The above link in a link format: http://www.crawfordtool.com/Tools-Sprin ... 25006.html

[Nails]

I just fabricated a pilot screw driver to take on the road, from an Allen wrench and washer.

This didn't work after all. The screws are too dificult to turn, given the limited access. (Works on other bikes though, so not a total washout.)
I'll need to spring for one of those cable screwdrivers. Anyone know of a good tool? (Getting mighty tired of pulling the carbs.)

[triton28]

here's one: www.carbtune.com
Although it is in England, they have quality items.
Probably some manufacturer in the U.S. makes one as well but this is the only one I know of,
Dave

[ekap1200]

If any of your friends are professional mechanics have them ask the tool dealers. ie Mac , Snap On , Matco all of them should have a source for the angled carb tool you seek... I have seen them in auto parts stores as well. They are still out there. the tip you need to do the job easy has a sleeve around the flat screw blade making it easy to get onto the adjuster, falls right on and stays there. You should not need to turn these to far either open or closing the throttle plates. Some will come with a small set of carb adj tool ends. I you are new to doing this job, get a fan going in the front of the bike, you don't want to over heat and crystallize the piston rings from taking so long and going into over heat.
Getting the rubber caps off the intakes can be a trick the first time. So put a rag under the carbs to avoid loosing one down behind the alt or starter.

Before you start , practice getting the tool on the screw and get familiar with the way the screw either opens or closes the throttle plates. :High vacuum (open that throttle plate) low vac ( close the plate )
With a little practice you will be doing it like a Pro.

[Jimvoyager01]

What you are looking for is a pilot screw adj. tool,,,Available from Motion Pro,,,part # 08-0119 $ 25.00

[Nails]

Mucha gracias.
I've had these carbs off five times already, loosing those tiny clamp bolts behind the starter and all. Sheesh.
Did you get your plugs a nice tan? I think the stock jets are way too lean.
(Sorry about hijacking "carb clearance issues" -- I'm already into this in the "sudden miss" thread. Really should talk about it there.)

[voyager55]

I have found the Morgan Carbune to be the best unit to use. More accurate than any gauge. Great product

here's one: http://www.carbtune.com
Although it is in England, they have quality items.
Probably some manufacturer in the U.S. makes one as well but this is the only one I know of,
Dave