Roadside Diagnostic?

[MartinKemp]

If you've seen my previous posts, you'll know my challenges. This bike is "self-healing". When it quits, if I leave it sit for a while (2 - 24 hours), it starts right up and runs fine again (until the next failure). Diagnosing such an intermitent problem is difficult.

So next time the bike strands me, I need to do some "field" diagnostics while it is still in failure mode.

Spark: I can easily enough check spark on cylinders 1 & 4. Those are exposed and accessible. Any thoughts on a quick way to check for spark on 2 & 3 (without pulling the battery & battery box)?

Fuel: Can anyone suggest a method of checking fuel to the carbs on the roadside? I think I will extend the outlet end of the fuel filter with a 12-18 inches of hose and another filter so I can see if fuel is pumping in real time. But if I have fuel pumping properly, what else can I check at the roadside to determine if there is a fuel problem.

Ideas strongly encouraged.

[triton28]

Martin;
typically coils fail when they heat up from either engine temperature or from induction heat between the primary windings inside the coil itself, after being in operation for a period of time. With heat buildup for either reason the primary windings develop an open circuit and there is no spark going to the plugs until after the coil cools down.
Usually it is one or the other coil which fails leading to very erratic/lumpy engine operation as only 2 cylinders are working.
If just before the bike dies there appears to be a dramatic loss of power accompanied by rough or no engine firing on 2 or 4 cylinders then chances are it is coil related. Especially since it appears to correct itself after sitting, ( cooling down ), for some time.
However if the engine just all of a sudden shuts off with no warning I don't think it's coil related unless both coils are going open circuit at the same time, rare but it can happen. In this case it probably is fuel related, carbs being starved for fuel.
Beg, borrow, or buy an infrared temperature sensor and if the bike does it again zap the individual exhaust pipes and they should all be about the same temperature if the ignition system is working at the time of shutdown.
There is only one way I know of to check #2 and 3 coil and that is as you mention, sorry.
Just some ideas which may help,
Dave

[ekap1200]

Hello from soon to be cold New Jersey...
Your fuel is the most easy of the roadside problems to check for.
tools added to bike as follows

1- empty cat food metal can or other small non-leak metal container
1-3mm allen drive -1/4 square drive socket
1-8" or better 1/4 drive extension
1/4 drive ratchet .
Now do you see the four hoses on the bottom of the carbs ?
They are drains that are run into a single common hose.
Pull that hose out so that you can reach a can sitting on your right side foot peg to begin this test.

As the bike fouls and you pull off the roadway , get it up on the center stand.
tools out , can on the peg or floor board . open one valve and SEE if gas come's out.
Do the same for each carb......( do what you must to empty the can each carb drainage_ so that you have some clue to how much is in each carb.....)

Now, if all the carbs had fuel----- move on you got gas....
You may however now need to PRIME the carbs..... or risk draining the batt down or overheating the starter while they all fill
We here at the AVA have an easy solution....
Remove the faux tank...
Follow your positive battery cable down on the left side to where it goes to the starter relay , it is tight but even big old hands like mine can get in there.
remove the plug with the two small wires and
Key on, Run switch on, starter button pressed .... and listen for the fuel pump----- If your floats are good the pump will begin to slow and then stop pumping... Don't forget to plug the starter relay wires back on...
MOVE ON to something else....
Always carry a cheepy 12vdc test light for elec... troubleshooting
If you thinks it coils,,, get it home they can be time-consuming for some to get at...
Hope this gives you somewhere to start out on the road... Gene Kap

PS. has this bike ever been dropped to the point of replacing the front crash bar on the right side....?
Pick up coil harness runs behind the mounting flange.. and could be pinched to just about the point of being all the time an OPEN CIRCUIT..

[MartinKemp]

That's very helpful, thank you!!

I will practice these techniques in the shop before I head out on the road. Hopefully save me some time, when the time comes.

Temperature was 3 degrees Celsius overnight...37 F. Season is nearing its end!

Martin
(already cold) Calgary, Canada

[Mr Jensee]

I am still betting it is a bad coil. On a bike this old it is worth replacing both of them and even replacing the coil wires if necessary. Martin there are used coil sets on Ebay right now for $60. It might be worth swapping out both sets.

[ekap1200]

I am still betting it is a bad coil. On a bike this old it is worth replacing both of them and even replacing the coil wires if necessary. Martin there are used coil sets on Ebay right now for $60. It might be worth swapping out both sets.

Wouldn't hurt to have a spare set in house , should the time come..and the price is fair, add new wires and bingo ,,, under a hundred dollar parts bill. Just start somewhere and rule things out as you go along.
The only other time I had seen fuel issues do this was a bike that had all air susp. and bottomed out and bent the fuel elbow from the swing arm striking it.... It had kinked the tube and at times enough rust and debris would shut it down. Wait some time and the clog would loosen up and run again for a while.
You just need to know that you have air/fuel/spark , then go from there
Gene Kap

[MartinKemp]

Gents, the dealership changed out the 1-4 coil, saying it had failed. So 1-4 coil is new (but did not solve the problem). I tested the one they removed and it seems to test ok (coil resistances consistent with the spec in the service manual). Hence (part of) my dissatisfaction with the dealer....

So, I have the old 1-4 as a "spare" coil which I think is fine and I can use as a test coil for 2-3 next time the failure occurs. Although the mounting hardware is reversed, I'm assuming there is no other difference between 1-4 coil and 2-3 coil. Just the mounting / grounding config is mirror image.

I'm going to wire that spare coil so that I can quickly substitute it in for the 2-3 coil while I'm on the road side. I've resigned myself to the fact that I'll have to pull the battery/box to get to the plug wires. But frankly, I have the bike so stripped at the moment that it is really just a matter of unscrewing the +/- battery terminals and lifting the battery out. I'll use booster cables between the battery sitting on the ground to the +/- on the bike, and crank the engine and check for spark on 2-3 and if there is none, I'll sub-in the "spare coil" and see what I get.

If there is spark from the original (mounted) 2-3 coil, and spark on 1-4, then I'll move on to fuel (the carb drain procedure).

I know I put way too much detail into these posts. I'm really writing out a plan and getting it straight in my own head. I know that you folks don't need to hear all the nitty gritty. But thanks so much for your patience, and if you do see flaws in my plans, and you'd like to point those out, I do appreciate that.

Warm weekend forecast, so I hope to get out on the road Saturday and Sunday.

[ekap1200]

Thats why I said , check the fuel first. It wouldn't have cost you any money

[JHD]

I had an intermittent problem on one of my bikes a few years ago. Would run fine then would just quit on me. I went through everything checking fuel, spark, etc. Finally I figured it out and was as simple as changing out my gas cap. Turned out that my new gas cap had a defective vent so on went the old cap and I have not had a problem since.

[ekap1200]

Martin, When has fuel filter been changed, and did you look at the bottom of the fuel tank for the elbow being bent as I said it can be. did you gather up the tools needed to work on this problem. The fuel filter could be so bad as to choke off the fuel. Then loosen up and supply fuel again for a short time.. Did it always run this way from the day you bought it ?
What else have you looked at ? did you get yourself a 12 volt test light. and the proper tools to open the carb drains. Have you tried to unplug the starter relay. So you can hear the fuel pump run. And does the engine shut down completely.....all four, no warning. off and cost to a stop ???? or does it stumble as to indicate it is only running on two cyl's... Is there any other items that do not work when the bike shuts down ? Have you looked at all the connections and fuel pump connections on the right side.
And did you get the service manual ? Be careful using meter with different impedance and different battery voltages for resistance readings. You never got back to me when I asked if the bike had ever been dropped on the right side.....
Give us some more history on this bike.... Are there added lights and gizmos all taped into the wiring ? What was the condition of the bike when you took ownership of it ?
The more we know the more we can help....
Hate to see someone going back and forth to dealers that have no one old enough to know this machine.
Gene

[triton28]

As JHD posted, try leaving the gas cap slightly ajar, so to speak. It has also happened to me a long time ago but I had the same results as JHD, the bike died. And hey, this test doesn't cost anything, so long as you don't have a full tank on a rough road.
It's worth a try.

[Jimvoyager01]

Dont worry about the length of your posts,,,we can all learn from you,,and help you..

[MartinKemp]

Thanks for all your ideas. To answer Gene's questions....

I don’t have much history on this bike. I bought it in April, 55,000 kilometers on odometer. Drove it home 30 kms and it ran fine. Next day I drove it to work and it quit on the way there.. So, this problem has existed for me since day 2 of ownership.

After the first failure, and thinking I was tech savvy, I changed the fuel filter. It died again next time out. So I changed the fuel pump (aftermarket 4 wire pump). Didn’t solve the problem. Realizing that I'm maybe not so tech savvy, I took it to the dealer. They said the 1-4 coil was bad, and replaced it. Rode it for 600 kms trouble free, and then it quit again. Back to dealer. They said that the new coil (that they'd replaced) was "bad off the shelf", and they replaced it again. Rode 1.5 kms out of the dealership and it quit again (this shortly after a 60 km trouble free dealer road test). They trailered it back, kept it for three weeks, replaced the negative cable from battery to the engine and said I had a bad ground. Drove it home (15 kms trouble free), went out the next day and it quit again at the 17 kms mark. I've been chasing the ghost ever since...

Things I've checked...
- tested the pulsar coil resistance (both cold and with heat applied) - good according to service manual specs.
- pin checked IC Ignitor as best I can with Fluke meter
- inspected pulsar coil wiring from coils thru and to the connector at the IC igniter. Don't see any problems.
- replaced the 4 female brass connectors at the ICI. While checking the pulsar coils I noticed that the connector at the ICI seemed really loose, (and possibly intermittent) so I replaced the brass and cleaned the male spades coming out of the ICI. Nice and tight now.
- tested the diode set (both cold and with heat applied) - good according to service manual specs (and same as the other diode set that is in the headlight circuit).
- stripped the tape off the wiring from the kick stand switch and inspected. Didn't find any obvious wire damage.
- took the battery for testing. Has only 100 CCA (should be 260 CCA), but the technician says that low CCA will not cause bike to quit as long as the charging system is working.
- Checked voltage at the battery at hi-way speed. 13.5 to 14.5 VDC. So I think that is ok.
- inspected a lot of wires (although not very systematically) and have not found any evidence of pinch, abrasion or disconnect.

Since the last failure, I have done (and so still need to road test) a couple more things...
- removed, cleaned and reinstalled the Black/Yellow ground wire where it attaches to the frame. Continuity is good now -was questionable before.
- opened the first connector after the ignition switch and found some green corrosion in the plug. Not significant but could possibly cause intermittent I suppose. I will spray and clean and reconnect.

My Plan...
- test the fuel pump using the “starter disconnect procedure” you offered
- will change fuel filter (only about 600 kms on the current filter).
- I will try to find / inspect the fuel tank elbow (and all the related hoses for kinks / bends or other obstructions).
- will run with fuel cap loose or off (this idea really interests me because failure mode seem to align with this possible cause (vacuum in tank)).
- I have tools and supplies now to drain carbs. I’ll practice in the shop, and then be ready to do same at the road side if needed. If all seems well with carbs and fuel…
- Will have the old 1-4 coil (which the dealer said was toast, but actually measures within spec) ready (plug and play) for roadside substitute if I can’t get spark on during next failure.

The bike is clean and in very good (cosmetic) condition. I don’t see any aftermarket add-ons, spliced wires or anything of the sort. Seems pretty “stock”. I question if it was really maintained. When I changed the spark plugs, based on their condition and the amount of debris in the plug wells, I judged that those had never been changed. ODO only says 55,000 kms (unless it's been wrapped). But the bike is almost 25 years old (1993) …would have thought the plugs might have been changed before this.

The original (1st few) failures exhibited a loss of power, as though running on 2 cylinders, but I could still drive it some distance - it would eventually stall out (strong smell of raw fuel in exhaust), but would often restart, running on fewer than all cylinders. I could keep it running at high RPM and even drive it. I rode it 10 miles on 2 cylinders the first trip to the dealer.

Since the coil replacement, the mode has changed. There is an intermittent (but noticeable) loss of power, and then it quits abruptly and completely. I’ll be riding along at 100 k/h, feel a bit of sluggishness and then almost immediately the engine will simply stop. I just coast (more often push it) to the first safe place. During the failure, everything else appears to work. Dash cluster lights work as expected, engine cranks as expected. It even fires on 1 or 2 cylinders when choked, but will never restart / run. Leaving it sit for 1-2 hours seems to correct the ghost, the engine starts and runs well, and off we go again as though there was nothing wrong.

I'll see how things go on Sunday when I get out on the road again. Have a safe and enjoyable weekend. THANK YOU for sharing your wisdom with me.

[Me Again]

I had a similiar problem on a 1300 once.After going through most of the checks you have done I found the fuel line from the tank to the filter was plugged
Replaced that and no more problems .
The other thing you may want to check is the converters and mufflers for blockage . That one was self inflicted as I was trying to quiet the bike a little instead of buying mufflers

[ekap1200]

Well more info, well done... How was the fuel filter ? A little backwash and you can get an idea of how much crap was in it..
Did it have the OEM fuel lines ? They are quality silicon hoses and, there is one that has two different size ends on it. be careful . As for the tank fitting you can look right at the bottom of the fuel tank and see it. It should be at 90 deg. I had a bike here with that issue about 3 years ago. Would run for about 10 to 50 miles then quit.... he would sit along the road side and wait. then it would start up and off he would go. someone had changed out the fuel line from the tank with auto-fuel line and a hose clamp. Swing arm struck the hose clamp; it and kinked the elbow......tank rust and debris would jam up at the kink and shut the fuel off..as he would sit on the side of the road , the rust and debris would loosen up and fuel would again flow for a bit.
Don't keep running this engine if you suspect any non-firing plugs. You will gas wash the cyl's and then be in real trouble. Without the plugs firing, raw gas , wash's the very thin film of lube oil off of the piston and cyl wall. DAMAGE WILL OCCUR....
Please open up the bowls and see whats in there. The longer you wait, the more at risk you have of getting what may now just be sitting in the bowl to be drawn up into the idle circuit.... Why take off the carbs if you don't need too....

[MartinKemp]

Good morning, I took a look at the tank fitting. Short answer is I don't know...it might have a kink in it. I tried to take some pictures...it's a hard spot to photograph. Have a look and see what you think.

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... EtFUlZ4NVU

I'm going to "guess" from looking at the hose / clamps that it is OEM.

I was able to practice draining the carbs and refilling using the fuel pump with the starter relay disconnected (brilliant). So I'm confident in the fuel pump.

Heading out to test drive in an hour. I'm ready to troubleshoot! I'll let you know what happens.

[ekap1200]

Good morning, I took a look at the tank fitting. Short answer is I don't know...it might have a kink in it. I tried to take some pictures...it's a hard spot to photograph. Have a look and see what you think.

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... EtFUlZ4NVU

I'm going to "guess" from looking at the hose / clamps that it is OEM.

I was able to practice draining the carbs and refilling using the fuel pump with the starter relay disconnected (brilliant). So I'm confident in the fuel pump.

Heading out to test drive in an hour. I'm ready to troubleshoot! I'll let you know what happens.

OK. So when you drained the carbs, how did the fuel that came out look/ any rust or debris ? did they all have about the same amount in each. Did you look at your air filter and all hoses going to the air box. You said you changed out the plugs , how did they look ?
I looked at the tank tube , not bad. was the fuel filter you changed out very much clogged and full of crap ?
when you go for your test ride keep the faux tank off and bring your test lamp. let us know what you find out today...
Gene Kap.

[MartinKemp]

Fuel pump is intermittent.

When the engine quit on the roadside yesterday (as I knew it would) I immediately went to the carb draining procedure. 4 carbs were dry. Not a drop came out. So I disconnected the starter relay and held the starter button. The fuel pump did its job and "tick, tick, tick" until the carbs were full. Then (and I don't know why) I drained the carbs one by one as I'd done the day prior on the shop. Once drained, I tried to refill them again. When I pushed the start button to run the fuel pump this time...NO TICK TICK TICK! I checked the ignition and kill switches for correct position, and all seemed well. I checked for power at the fuel pump connector (with the $3.00 test light you recommended) and power was good. I could see power come on to 1 of the 4 wires when I pushed the start button. Inadvertently while I was messing around with the test light and wiggling fuel pump wires I tapped the end of the fuel pump with the tool, or my knuckle, and away it went - tick, tick, tick (I had a very patient and beautiful riding partner with me, holding the start button in while I worked and cursed...she deserves better). Carbs filled. Engine started immediately and off I went.

I rode about 50 miles after that. The bike still lost power and quits. I stopped, unplugged the starter relay, held the starter button and tapped on the end of the fuel pump with a screwdriver, the pump would pump and I'd be off again.

I changed out the fuel pump in May shortly after buying this Voyager, thinking that I was tech savvy and had identified my stalling problem. I installed an aftermarket pump, as a less expensive alternative to OEM ($70.00).

http://www.highflowfuel.com/i-23443575- ... -1995.html

I guess I'll give the vendor a call this morning, and see about getting my money back.

Without this forum, and all of you who have guided me the last weeks and months, I would still be chasing ghosts. I know a lot about this bike and about trouble shooting. All of that, because of you.

Thank you!! A million times over!

Martin Kemp
Calgary, Canada

[Gator Mike]

Martin glad you found your problem. Do you still have the old pump. If so it might be possible to file the points on it and make it work again. I did mine about 2 years ago and all is well. The procedure is in the Tech center under OEM fuel pump reconditioning. If this was mentioned before I missed it. Good luck..............Gator MIke

[MartinKemp]

I do have the original fuel pump. Point filing sounds like a very good "winter project". The season is almost done here in Alberta, but I can rest easy knowing that I know what the problem is.

Thanks again,
Martin