Voyager VII fuel level test failed after 2nd carb rebuild

[Write2Paul90277]

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Hey folks,

In a separate thread ("Hibernated XII wakes, revs and dies") I cried to everyone how my ZGXII would only start and run with the choke fully on, and how the engine would rev to about 3 to 4,000 rpm and then die the instant the choke was released.

You all made some great suggestions, including what to look for when rebuilding the carbs. During my second carb "adventure" I found some debris in the low-speed jets that I missed the first time. Solving that problem gave me hope.

Now the carbs are together, and after setting the floats to 17mm, I did the fuel level test that uses a U-shaped piece of clear fuel line. Sadly, the level was way off.

As you know, the IDEAL level in the tube should be 0.5mm below the top of the bowl, +/- 1mm

Well, MY level was 1 to 5mm ABOVE the top of the bowl. : (

I went back and changed the float height to 18mm as suggested elsewhere the forum. Got the same poor results.

What went wrong? Any suggestions? If the float level (17mm or 18mm) is right on, does the secondary test make that much difference?

I’d like to solve this BEFORE putting the carbs back on the bike, as you can well imagine.

Thanks,

Paul

[JHD]

Paul I would make sure you follow this note out of the manual while testing the level.

Note: Do not lower the "zero" line below tIle bottom edge of the carburetor body. If the gauge is lowered and then raised again, the fuel level measure shows somewhat higher than the actual fuel level. If the gauge ;s lowered too far, dump the fuel out of it into suitable container and stan the procedure over again.

Also you need to make sure that your measurements are taken with the float tang resting on the float valve needle and not depressing it.

As suggested in the manual, replace float, valve or both if you can't get it adjusted within the values listed.

How are you testing the carb set, are you following the procedure exactly as laid out in the manual?

Not sure if you have to worry about the floats failing but I suppose they could. Maybe remove each float and make sure they are empty. Also make sure the needle operates smoothly in the float valve.

The only other suggestion I have is that you inspect your diaphrams on the slides for any damage or age related issues unless you already did this on reassembly.

I'm sure it is something simple. Just take your time and you should get it dialed in.

[Write2Paul90277]

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Thanks for the suggestions, JHD.

I've addressed most everything you mentioned but will try the test again making sure not to lower the "zero" line below the bottom edge of the carb body.

FYI, I'm using original floats (with no leaks), new float valves, new gaskets, did a proper ultrasonic cleaning, measured float height (17mm) with the tangs just touching but not compressing the valve needle spring, etc., etc. Also, the diaphragms and slides are in great shape.

Will attempt again and get back to you all!

Paul

[Write2Paul90277]

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Hi again, JDH

I did the float level test again, being careful not to let the "zero" line go below the bottom edge of the carb body.

Result? There was an improvement, but still, the level is slightly higher than the edge of the carb body (about 1.5 to 2mm too high).

With that in mind, I am going to try going from 17mm to 18mm on the float height and see what happens.

Will update you soon.

Paul

[Write2Paul90277]

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Hi Guys,

Here's an update on my float level saga.

I set the floats to 18mm (instead of the recommended 17mm), and still, the fuel level in the clear tube was 2 or 3mm above the top of the float bowls.

Next, I went to 19mm on the float height, and the level in the tube was just about even with the top of the bowls, but NOT the recommended 0.5 +/- 1.5mm.

What next? Should I try going to 20mm on the float height? Seems kind of odd that the factory would recommend 17mm when it seems to take so much more to get the fuel level in the tube to the correct height.

Has anyone had a similar experience? For that matter, has anybody just gone with the standard 17mm height and ignored the clear tube confirmation test?

Curiously,

Paul

[doug of so fla]

PaulI::: read all your posts but didn't see if you called Carl Leo ?? Thaat is the best suggestion I would have!! He is THE BEEST with these carbs!!!! One thing I remember about the carbs and kits, is do not use the kit "HANGARS" for the floats think cause they cause a sticking problem. But if I were you I would see if I could get a hold of him, and sometime he is unavailable, but keep trying, he has helped many of us for many years with XII problems.

[Write2Paul90277]

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Thanks, Doug,

I spoke with Carl a few weeks ago (great guy!) and incorporated some of his earlier suggestions (looking for air leaks, proper jet installation, etc.) and still, the engine would only run on full choke.

More recently, I sent him an email and tried calling, but this must be one of Carl's "unavailable" times. The main thing I want to know is why Kawasaki would tell us to set the floats at 17mm when that setting makes the fuel level too high. I mean, which process should I believe? the float setting or the secondary level test? They seem to contradict each other.

BTW, I DID take the advice about the float valve hangers and am using the originals, not the ones in the kit.

Hopefully Carl or one of you guys can set me straight before I put the carbs back on.

Best regards,

Paul

[ekap1200]

Well this is going on to long... So your saying all four bowls are filling up way to far. By dang near 3/16 of on inch ? Or just one bowl is overfilling ? Are you sure , by way of submersing the floats ,safely in a fuel container, that they are not damaged and becoming HEAVY . Are you sure the seats are not pitted or some sort of debris are stuck to the needle . Without being there with you and looking at the carbs its a bit of a guessing game as to what is causing a simple float valve to not shut off until it is overfull. It has to be something your overlooking that we can not help you with unless we are there. Is it possible that every time you test the level that dirty fuel is getting into the valve. Or now stuck onto the needle or seat.... As I said it is hard to help you on this one without being there. Sounds like time to call in a friend that is a mechanic and work this issue out. Even if you are a mechanic, it may be better to have a fresh set of eyes on whats going on.
Hope you get this this repaired. Wish I could have been more help.
Gene

[Write2Paul90277]

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Hello, Gene,

In answer to your questions:

-- Yes, all four carbs are overfilling (but not overflowing).
-- No, submersing the floats doesn't show any damage, leaks or heaviness.
-- Yes, the seats and needles are free of pitting and debris.
-- No, there is no dirty fuel is getting in.

I'm not a mechanic, but not a clueless hack, either. I have not found a mechanic who's familiar with the old Voyagers (Los Angeles is not exactly a hotbed of touring bikes).

My MAIN issue now is how to measure the fuel level using the clear tube test: ABOVE the top of the float bowl or BELOW? Here's a diagram:

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f198/ ... 1513960285

And finally, yes I wish one or more of you could be here in Southern California so we could all bump heads together on this. Free beers on the Redondo Beach pier for any takers!

Paul

[ekap1200]

OK, I viewed your photo, go to page 2-9 and read Fuel Level inspection. You really need to hold the carbs on a suitable home built or purchased Stand. Then you are to put the 0.0 mark ABOVE THE CARB BODY BY ABOUT 1/16 INCH after draining and securing ALL drain valves. Apply a fuel source, and carefully LOWER THE 0.0 LINE to the botom of the body.( right in-between what is shown in your photo)
I did this when I had first bought the bike and then , using a small glass baby food jar repeated the draining and refilling of that bowl. Then repeated the filling of the bowl and draining again. This time etching the glass to show a go line on what fuel was in the now set bowl. It makes it easy for me to check the condition of my carbs when I do my routine service. Same jar , same results from new to over 90,000 miles.
Anyway I hope this clears up from where and how and when to set the 0.0 mark .And be sure to have these carbs secure up on you work area.
Do you have the book ? Now on to where the fuel level is to be.as per page 2-12
Next page says ( 0.5mm {0.0196"} Lets just say .02 of an inch or right at the body. ) The tolerance you have is .04" up or down from there. Go back over the initial throttle valve pre-run and idle screw setting again, double check the choke circuit , Go back over every thing you did and make certain the work and air-intake area's are clean and read again the chapter on ( FUEL SYSTEM ).And one more thing......
MERRRRY CHRISTMAS AND A RUNNING BIKE FOR THE NEW YEARS.

[voyager55]

Think how much better our bikes would be if Kaw would of used fuel injection instead of carbs

[VoyKimmer]

I understand why a lot of people like to do all the work themselves including me but I fail to understand why people continue to torture themselves when they could just send them to Carl Leo and just install them and done. Plug and play. Recently got mine done and the hard part is removing and replacing but nothing else. Like an apple product. They just work. Nothing to adjust.

[ekap1200]

Yes Kim , sometimes that is the route best traveled. But I have also seen that approach fail. Unless one has seen how a dirty bike and air system can be cause of the problem in the first place. I have had bikes in here that take more time to clean up around the air box than to service the carbs. Dirt and grime caked behind the engine and places one does not see. Some so caked you cant tell if the air tube springs are even on the air/duct. And I am sure Carl has had issues with a customer or two foul up a perfectly good set of carbs he has done, by just getting them back on. I myself have done a few carbs this year for some local kids with dirt bikes here and a week later they are back. Only to find the jets clogged again with either sand or bits of rotted air filter. I can not stress enough the importance of a clean work area. Simple job of replacing plugs and air filters have caused more issues than if one would have let them be and called in a helper mechanic. I still don't think this is the issue here, there has to be another reason for the bike only running with the choke on full , as if the pilot passage is clogged still or you not opening up the idle screw enough for initial start up until you can sync the carbs. It sounds like a bike that has a fuel petcock that is in the off position., bike will start and then rev up as the carb runs out of fuel then die out.. But one has to learn sometime, usually easier done on a single carb bike....And not being there on site makes for a difficult task of us helping out also. Being a bit high on fuel level the engine should start to flounder from an over-rich condition , not just rev up and die out from lack of fuel. May be time to start over on the rebuild and make certain the idle passage is clear and open. to the front of the throttle plate. It is a very small passage to verify that it is clear and open.
Paul don't get to worked up over this, getting into a panic mode will not help. Walk away from it for a few days and think this thru. But know when to call it quits and call in a friend .

[Write2Paul90277]

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I hear you, Voykimmer and ecap1200!

Oddly, I kind of enjoy the torture and see it and a challenge. I've managed in the past to rebuild and tune the very temperamental carbs on a Hondas CBX, which has six of them, as well as the mind-bendingly complex two-stage carb on the Suzuki RE5 Rotary.

As far as the 1200's carbs go, I am just as weary of this topic as you guys must be. A rebuild from Carl would be heaven, but money is a consideration. How much $$ are we talking about?

I appreciate ecap1200's encouraging words and will forge ahead for now. I don't relish rebuilding the carbs a third time! I have been meticulous about the whole process, but no one is perfect, right?

It's just THIS ONE FINAL STEP of checking the fuel level that has me stumped. The language in the manual and various articles and posts can be vague and, at times, contradictory. I wish there was a video tutorial (specifically for the XII) that would illustrate what words can't.

Thanks,

Paul

[VoyKimmer]

Carl puts a lot of time into the rebuild including polishing and of course the parts . That cost money and he is very fair . He has done thousands of carb rebuilds but you have come this far so I would give Carl a few calls. He gives free advice. You can do it. Gene I know what your talking about as far as cleaning things up good. As you know I keep my bike very clean but even with that there are areas you can't get to. Yes before taking things apart clean the area very good and after things are out clean some more but be carful no to get any grime in intakes and plug holes ect.

[Write2Paul90277]

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Hey guys

Looks like mountaineerxii was having some similar challenges carb-wise.

Back on Nov 7th, he wrote (in part)…


"Here's what I did and the tools I used:

Carburetor float level (when body held @ 45deg) = 20MM (the factory 17mm setting ended up too high on wet test)

Wet test = fuel level at float bowl seam, per factory

Pilot screws = 2-3/4 turns

There was a lot of change between 2-3/4 turns and 3 turns with really no sweet spot in between. I blame using after-market pilot screws."


He claims his bike's performance was excellent using these parameters.

I'm going to give the 20 mm float setting a try unless anyone feels I'm going down the wrong path.

Thx

Paul

[ekap1200]

Merry Christmas Paul, you wrote////

I'm going to give the 20 mm float setting a try unless anyone feels I'm going down the wrong path.

Give it a try,,, that 17mm was for stock float needle valve , your aftermarket may need a different setting , but I would still look back on things you done already.... But think how easy removing and installing the carbs will be from now on.

[Write2Paul90277]

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Merry Christmas, guys.

After unwrapping presents this morning I took another shot at setting the float levels in my XII carbs.

I set all four to 20mm and....

HALLELUJAH! The wet test levels were all within 0 and 2mm, none of which were above the seam between the carb and bowl.

The actual levels were -1mm, -2mm, 0mm, and -2mm in that order from left to right.

Is that close enough or shall I strive to have the same wet level on all four?

Baring any additional comments from the group (which are always welcome!) I will bolt the carbs on in a couple of days.

Thanks for your feedback and patience thus far.

Paul

[Write2Paul90277]

Hi people,

As you may have seen in my last post, I'm getting VERY CLOSE on the fuel level wet test on my 88 XII.

With the floats set at 20mm, the most recent wet levels were -1mm, -2mm, 0mm, and -2mm at or below the top of the float bowls.

Question #1:
Is that close enough?

Question #2:
If I keep tweaking, I can probably get them all to the same wet level, but then the floats themselves would vary by a millimeter or so. Is it better to get the wet levels exact and not worry so much about the floats themselves?

THANKS!

Paul

[Write2Paul90277]

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Response from ekap...

Sent: Thu Dec 28, 2017 3:17 pm
by ekap1200

Hello again, Paul. I am sure my bike has about that much tolerance between the 4 bowls by now. In sync. I have a good idle but on the jar, I use for draining shows about .025 to .030 tol between each other, I never worry about it and it sounds and idles the same since new. Carbs have never been off. Now I do run this bike and have been known to travel upwards of 7,000 in a two-week vacation. I don't feel this is the issue with the condition your having but keep at it. It will only get easier the more you work on the Voyager. If you feel confident the idle circuit is clear and don't have that big of an issue getting them in, what would it hurt to put them on the bike and give it a try? As long as you have a nice warm shop to work in. It has been BITTER cold here in NJ and the coldest I can remember in several years.
Gene Kap



Sent Thu Dec 28, 2017 4:15
by Write2Paul90277

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Much appreciated, Gene!

Per your suggestion, I will quadruple check the idle circuit, get the wet levels as close as humanly possible and bolt those suckers on the bike -- that will be the ultimate test. If there's any more work to be done, at least I've become a semi-expert at removing and reinstalling the carbs.

Stay warm out there in NJ,

Paul