New Age Sensitive Bikes

[Nails]

Barry and I have been talking about how sensitive XII steering and handling are to all sorts of stuff. They don't tolerate Dunlop 404's on the front, but do swell with darkside rears. The stock air suspension is so fussy about pressure that most of us dump it. They're also pretty fussy about tire pressure -- more than any other bike I've owned. I could cite more.

Also more than any other bike I've owned, in corners my XII generally requires a lot of pushing on the inside handlebar. It falls into corners, especially at low speeds. Barry mentions that "Michelin elite 3's or Avon load range 74" help with this.

We got into this by bringing up counter-steering. I think this inside pushing is a frame geometry characteristic (I mean, Kawa designed it that way on purpose), different from counter-steering which only initiates the lean and turn. But darkside Barry thinks: "I've been running a nexen rear. The soft sidewall allows some flex and the bike will continue to fall in the corner until some back pressure is applied." I remember Neal mentioning that Nexen are more fussy about the front tire than Federals.

I don't know about any of these tires, having experience with only a Dunlop 404 on the rear and MT66 on the front. (I started with a 404 there, too.) But I'm about to go darkside on the rear.

"This problem deserves a post on the forum." Okay, here goes. I'm trying to bring a lot of scattered chatter together in one place, focusing on this XII cornering characteristic and how darkside might affect that.

[ghostler]

I have Progressive Springs in the stock front forks and the more primo more pricey Progressive Shocks in the rear. She rides like a Cadillac.
Oh, and I don't use Dunlop 404's.

[Me Again]

I have Progressive Springs in the stock front forks and the more primo more pricey Progressive Shocks in the rear. She rides like a Cadillac.

Does that mean she's a boat.

[shifterkart26]

Progressive front and rear with Michelin Commander II's. What an amazing transformation!

[ghostler]

Does that mean she's a boat.

[Nails]

That's funny.


What do you think about the steering geometry, especially falling into slow corners?

I've had several UJMs (touring and naked) and lots of dirt bikes, but no experience with sportbikes or cruisers. How does this compare with your other bikes?

As mentioned, some have suggested that tire selection plays a big role here, too.

[Mr Jensee]

Counter Steering is not characterized by merely leaning into the corners. Counter Steering is when you push one bar forward when you want to go to the left or right. Pushing on the bar caused the front tire to go opposite from where you want to go forcing the bike to lean into the direction opposite steered.

[Nails]

Right. Initiating that lean is the same thing as initiating the turn. Once leaned, you have to at least straighten the bars and ride the lean, unless the curve gets tighter. The bike goes where you steer it (the headlight, if fork-mounted, aims around the curve); not straight off the curve as it would if you were still counter-steering. Eventually, you have to turn the other way to get out of the lean.

But with my XII, I have to push on the inside bar all the way around the turn. That isn't counter-steering, which is turning left to go initiate going right. I have to push on the bar just to go straight. When the bike is leaned, it pushes to lean more (at slower speeds, anyway). That's what I mean by falling into the turns.

At least at slower speeds, the steering isn't anything like "neutral". I've never had a bike that does this so much. (My Goldwing sure didn't.) XIIs are designed for freeway curves, I reckon.

Unless my bike is somehow goofy.

Not a complaint, but it sure takes some adjustment to swap between the XII and my dirt bike.

[Barry]

With other motorcycles when counter steering, once the appropriate lean angle is reached, the bike will remain at that angle without any additional counter steering pressure/effort. Most motorcycles will straighten up as more throttle is applied exiting the turn. All 3 vxii's I've owned will continue to fall in the corners until I apply opposite force on the bars to stop the fall. I don't know if what I'm saying is what everyone else is experiencing. This bike has a more sporty feel in the corners than the 1200 GW Aspencade I owned many years ago.

[ghostler]

The XII's upright 4 cylinder engine makes it slightly top heavier than the Goldwing's horizontally opposed 4 cylinder, which probably explains why along with also differences in fork geometry it reacts slightly different in turns. Also, the crankshaft axis differences may add minor differences in feel, too.

[Nails]

Yeah Barry, that's what I'm talking about. I've only ridden hoggish cruisers a few times, but I recall that they're like this too.

I believe this falling into corners is mostly by design (steering geometry, like trail or rake) -- likely a compromise for easier superslab steering. Another part of the compromise, I think, is a generally fussy front end.

My XII sure is more top-heavy than my GW was, but especially since that was a '75 with no fairing or trunk (geez, I liked that bike). I'm hoping to go trunkless soon -- it's not just the heavy trunk, but also the stout bracing to cantilever it way up and back there.

I'm not complaining. I got this bike for touring, not low-speed handling. I was just sorta pointing out the compromise and asking how different tires &etc affect it.

[Barry]

I think trunks can cause handling problems. Way back in my earlier touring days I had one of the first KZ650's sold. I bought it unseen. It was fun running it against the other 750's out there, but I got bored smoking the competition. So I turned to long distance touring and added Calafia saddlebags, trunk & fairing. With the trunk on this bike I discovered a terrible head shake when decelerating around 90 mph. The problem went away when the trunk was removed. I suspect vxii head shake issues might also go away if the trunk was removed. Only reason I haven't taken that step is I like the extra lights at night. I do have lights below the license plate. There's tips on removing the paint from the lens elsewhere on this site. Also I've added red lights in the rear turn signal housing which show up nicely at night. The actual turn signal bulb easily overpowers the red light so there's no safety compromise.

[Nails]

In another thread, I found a plug that allows replacing the trunk with some sort of rack, and then adding lights to it. I mean, I'm moving toward a bolt-up alternative to the trunk, lights and all, and reversible. That's a project slated for this winter.

I'll miss just chunking my helmet in the trunk. And I'll have to move the helmet locks because they're on that horking trunk brace. But I bet I can adapt.

For touring, I'm considering using a way-kool Halliburton aluminum suitcase instead of the trunk -- totally art deco. Instead of the back seat too, since I'll tour solo. But let me see how the rack thing goes first.

I just wire-brushed the paint off the inside of the lower "GoldWing" lights, using a Dremel and some patience. Pretty crude, but I stuck bright LEDs in there. It works. (I also still want higher rear lights too.)

[ghostler]

I'll miss just chunking my helmet in the trunk. And I'll have to move the helmet locks because they're on that horking trunk brace. But I bet I can adapt.

One of these type locks on the handle bars, crash guards or passenger hand hold bars may solve the helmet lock problem.

https://www.amazon.com/Bikers-Choice-Mo ... B000WJYMMQ

I have one of these mounted on my 1971 Honda CB100, installed it a while back on my handle bar, solved the problem nicely.

Here's another slick solution. The 4 wheel combo lock can probably be cracked by some, but it will hopefully keep honest persons honest.

https://www.amazon.com/HELMETLOK-4-Digi ... 00BLPS29E/

[Nails]

Thx.

[HMB Don]

I've been following this, and there are lots of things that are being discussed here, I'm picking just one.

Handling, the Voyager 1200 is a touring bike, meaning it was made to go straight and on Interstates. But it can be made to corner, but the Voyager 1200 needs to be fine tuned. It took me ten years to get my 2002 to handle proper. In the end the only thing that my Voyager 1200 still did was wallow in high speed sweeper above 100 mph, don't do that much so it wasn't important.

The most dramatic change to handling was removing the rear speakers and rack. Took care of the falling into the turns, but still took a lot of muscle to bend into turns and the slow and sharper the turn the more effort. But at speeds above 70 mph, the weave was gone and a lot of noise. Next the front end, for a motorcycle this size the fork tubes are small. I didn't think so when I got the bike in 2002, but after awhile I noticed that the forks would flex fore and aft, which I couldn't fix without major mods. I was all set to install progressive fork springs, until is spoke to my youngest son and he said Race Tech. At the time his was a mechanic with a AMA superbike team, and he'd built his brothers AMA supersport R6 using Race Tech. I also added a Superbrace, some say that the Superbrace is not made right because the holes don't line up. What I found were my fork tubes were bowed just a bit and if not installed correct the fork legs would be either to far apart at the axle or would not line up when installing the axle. Then the tires I tried Avon, 404 and E3, I stayed with the E3, plus great traction and stabilty on both the Interstate roads and northern California back
roads. Every month I release the air in the front forks, while I was sitting on the Voyager. The fork action will suck air into the forks passed the fork seals, during rebound. Fork seals are a one way valve, and air pressure is for every ready to enter.

I then took off the swing arm when changing my u-joint and shaft. When I reinstalled it, I took my time is setting the preload of the tapered bearings. That done I changed the rear shock oil, with Amsoil fork oil mixing 5w and 10w. I'd run 50 lbs psi in the shocks, while sitting on the centerstand.

Next the frame; that frame section that's held on by four bolts. My Voyager had three of those bolts loose and one had unscrewed itself and was being held in by the upper fairing. After all of that I had a Hot Rod where I could ride with sport bikes and stay with them.

[Nails]

I think your list should be part of the routine response to newbies -- "I just got an XII, what should I do?"

I got rid of the speakers, antenna, and the whole rest of the radio on about day two. Don't need no stinkin' radio. I left the rear rack only because it doesn't weigh hardly anything and I didn't feel like plugging the holes. I don't really know how much that helped because the bike was a total mess then -- don't really know why I bought it, truth be told.

I went with Progressives, but I might spring (haha) for Race Tech anyway. One of my fork tubes is scratched (I didn't notice it at first), and I expect on-going problems with that fork seal. I plugged my fork air holes, but not permanently. I thought the headspace volume was too large leaving all that hose crap on. But I get what you're saying, and I might tap the air holes to allow a short bleed-off line/valve. (Without the manifold, I can adjust the fork height a little. But I haven't messed with that. I did, however, see a vid of some dude talking about headset adjustment and carefully setting the fork height. ;) I went with stock oil level (Dextron III) because of the reduced headspace. I'm also running the stock rear shock after replacing that oil (also Dextron III, 40 lbs for solo riding). I can see using real fork oil, but I like the detergents in the ATF for now. All of this helped a whole huge lot.

I'm glad to hear the rear shock can keep up with Race Tech front. I haven't gone with a fork brace because of ambivalent reports. I understand there are old and new versions of Superbrace, the old ones being preferred but hard to find. I got those inserts from Gene. Mine didn't have inserts at all and my fender is crushed, but not enough that the fender flops around. Talking of Gene, my headset was way loose (like a half turn or so) -- his headset tool was a good investment. (That dude in the vid thought so, too.)

I haven't experimented with tires beyond dumping a fairly new 404 front. Still have 404 on back pending darkside -- just waiting to wear it down a little more. I plan to repack/retorque the swingarm bearings when I deal with the darkside -- both of those are definitely on the list.

My front subframe bolts also were loose, just like you say. Next time I'm in there I'll remove them (one at a time) to use some thread locker.

I replaced my handlebars with something about 4-5" (total) narrower, mostly because I got tired of watching my hands in the mirrors. So I have less leverage, but I've run narrow bars on everything. (Helps with woods riding )

I think the best I can do at this point is deal with tires and dump the trunk. I have an idea about centralizing weight in the saddlebags, but it's just talking at this point.

Again, I'm not complaining; and my XII is getting plenty nice. It's also starting to feel like the 25K the clock says. But mine sure falls into corners, especially the 20MPH s-curve on my way out from the house. Stock (and old) leaves something to be desired.

[ghostler]

I can understand some of the buffeting that is produced by the trunk. I haven't pushed my XII above 80 mph, and that was only passing a slower moving vehicle quickly. Max posted speed here in NM and TX Panhandle is 75 MPH. The LEO's are good about pulling people over for doing 5 over. So far, I have no complaints about the LEO's here. Seen in other cities some questionable acts in road pull overs, but here, so far seems they could care less whether driving a red colored Mazda Miata or white soccer mom SUV. While heading down US Highway 84 Lubbock southeast to Snyder, cars were only doing 2 -3 MPH above the speed limit. That was a good tip off the LEO's were watching.

There's a warning placard on the trunk warning not to exceed 85 MPH. Based on the discussion here, now I understand why. I'm used to riding in wind through most of treeless NM and TX. Speaking of fun riding, I used to ride my (352 lb. dry) 1987 Suzuki LS650 Savage in these winds. I learned to relax the hands and lightly push the handlebar to track straight leaning into wind.
A light bike can track straight.

You sometimes do get some additional buffeting when heading into a 45 MPH headwind on the XII. But, I'd think with a pillion passenger, that the additional drag of another human body would make such buffeting a mute point.
I like the bling magnet created by the additional 2 speakers on the back so have kept it stock.

[MotoSquirrel]

As a potential owner, I've found this post to be quite helpful! I'll definitely be keeping this thread in mind when I go to test-ride the bike. . .

[Nails]

For a test ride, I'll just say that there are many handling issues that are easily fixed. With only a modest effort, a squirrely XII often can be made to handle quite nicely. Look for a major problem, but maybe think of minor handling issues as negotiating opportunities.
There are several other threads about other things to look for.
You might even get away with "let me think about it over lunch", and fire your question back here. This forum is kinda dead right now, but there's a good chance you'll get a meaningful reply before the French fries get cold.