Removing Oil Pan, Nails found crud, after using SeaFoam?

[SgtSlag]

Nails, you got me curious with your post that you had to replace your oil pan, on your Voyager, and you still found crud in there after using SeaFoam. Can you share more of what you found, and how you used SeaFoam, prior to this event?

I bought a 1979 Honda 750, in 2006. When the bike was made, they used the top-rated API oil available: SF (today's top API oil rating is SN). The thermal breakdown of the SF oil was 275 F. I installed an oil cooler along with an oil temperature gauge: the normal temperature of the engine oil, coming out of the crankcase up into the engine to cool it, without the oil cooler running, was... 275 F! Honda ran the engine oil at its breakdown temperature. Note that I only ran modern, API SL-SN oils in the bike from the day I owned it. The thermal breakdown temperature of SL oils is above 300 F, which the modern oils never experienced, outside of the cylinder head combustion area, and then only briefly.

Fast forward to 2009, when I had owned the bike for three years. I followed the directions for adding SeaFoam to the crankcase. I ran the bike, idling on the center stand, for five minutes, shifting through all five gears, to fully circulate the oil through the transmission, until the temperature reached 180 F, which is when the oil begins to suspend crud in it, for the filter to capture it. Then I shut it down, and I drained the oil. When the oil was cold, before I added the SeaFoam, the oil was a medium caramel color. After it reached 180 F, with the SeaFoam, it had turned coal black. I changed the oil and filter. A couple of years later, with another 9,000 miles on the engine, I repeated the SeaFoam treatment in the crankcase: after 5 minutes, and reaching the minimum 180 F temperature, the oil was the same caramel color -- no deposits were dissolved, nothing changed. The black crud was apparently from the SF-SH oils, used in the bike's past. Modern oils (SL+) do not produce much crud in the form of carbon deposits and varnish deposits. Modern engine oils have drastically improved over the API SF oils of 1979.

I treat all of my used engines with one dose of SeaFoam in the crankcase, when I first get them. After that, I only use it in the fuel tank. Modern oils don't leave much for deposits, in my limited experience. Curious what others have found. Cheers!

[Nails]

you had to replace your oil pan

Just the gasket (leaked pretty bad), plus about a dozen o-rings (preventative).

you still found crud in there after using SeaFoam. Can you share more of what you found, and how you used SeaFoam, prior to this event?

Oh, yeah. The crud was rather firmly settled into the oil pan recesses.

I added SeaFoam as well as Marvel Mystery Oil to the two prior oil changes. This bike was new to me a couple years ago and clearly did not enjoy the best of maintenance. Plus it had sat a long time. Not quite as advertised, and the test drive went pretty bad. But I had driven my truck a long way to see it, and I felt sorry for the guy selling it. So, it's been a bit of a resurrection.

they used the top-rated API oil available: SF (today's top API oil rating is SN).

You're the oil wonk around here.

I followed the directions for adding SeaFoam to the crankcase. I ran the bike, idling on the center stand, for five minutes, shifting through all five gears, to fully circulate the oil through the transmission, until the temperature reached 180 F

I was less meticulous -- just put it in and rode the bike, on fairly fresh Rotella. But not much further than back and forth to town (22 miles away, freeway). When drained, it was sure black and smelled quite rank. The second flush, a couple months later, wasn't much cleaner. I'll change it again soon hopefully get something less grody.

I treat all of my used engines with one dose of SeaFoam in the crankcase, when I first get them. After that, I only use it in the fuel tank. Modern oils don't leave much for deposits, in my limited experience. Curious what others have found. Cheers!

I can believe that mine was really, really vile. Hopefully that's working itself out. I'm sure I eliminated a reservoir of crud when I cleaned the inside of the oil pan. Note that my bike still has less than 30K. Good to know that eventually the oil should clear up. Now to find so 10W Rotella.

[SgtSlag]

Great information! Thanks for sharing the details with the rest of us. I expect your oil will clear after 1-2 more "rinses" with SeaFoam and/or Mystery Oil. The fact that your oil is darkening, indicates deposits are being dissolved, and removed. Hard to believe it is that dirty inside, with modern, high detergent oils. If it is running decently, then it is likely just a matter of cleaning the existing crud out -- no real damage done, I hope.

I used Rotella T6 Full Synthetic for a couple of years: 5W-40. Then I started to have false neutrals, between every gear... Finally, I switched back to T4, 15W-40: the false neutrals virtually disappeared. Only thing I can point my finger at, was the thinner oil. The Rotella T4 is rated JASO DH-2, MA/MA 2, safe for motorcycles with wet clutches. The 15W cold, has never been an issue. When we tour, sometimes the overnight low's have been in the 40's -- turns over just fine an hour after sunrise. Cheers!

[Nails]

If it is running decently

It wasn't. I had a busted plug which led to a stuck ring. Took a while to figure that one out -- couldn't get any of my compression testers in there. I'm sure I had a ton of blow-by. (The first shot of SeaFoam to the crankcase came via this piston.)

I used Rotella T6 Full Synthetic for a couple of years: 5W-40. Then I started to have false neutrals, between every gear

I have lots of issues with getting into second gear, even after it's warmed up and with some revs. These days it's a sporadic problem, hopefully going away.

The 15W cold, has never been an issue.

That's what I'm running now. (I' could swear I heard you once say to use 10W, never 15W ;) But I think I'll try 5W next time, perhaps to penetrate the crud better. I may go full synthetic eventually, but that seems a little pointless right now. I've been changing oil very frequently.

The SeaFoam definitely helps, but I think mostly in a preventative way. I don't think it really cures much, such as gunked up carbs. (But it did cure my stuck ring.)

[Nails]

But I don't want to leave you with the wrong impression. Yesterday I had a splendid ride up to the SF ski area -- 20 miles of first- and second-gear twisties. The bike is well sorted and finally ready for a proper trip!

[Van Voyager]

Rotella T6 Full Synthetic is also rated JASO DH-2, MA/MA 2.

OEM SPECIFICATIONS AND APPROVALS
5W-40
API: CK-4, CJ-4, CI-4 PLUS, CI-4, CH-4 ACEA E9, JASO DH-2, Cummins CES 20086; Volvo
VDS-4.5; Detroit Fluid Specification DDC (DFS) 93K222, Caterpillar ECF-2/ECF-3, MAN
M3575, JASO MA/ MA2, Allison TES 439, MB-Approval 228.31

[SgtSlag]

If I spoke against using 15W oils, I was mistaken, and I apologize. I don't remember. I did say something against using 5W oils, related to the fact that it is outside the recommended viscosity range, and the false neutral transmission issues I seemed to have because of it.

Even though Rotella T6 Full Synthetic (5W-40) is rated JASO MA/etc., it is outside of the minimum viscosity range recommended in the manual: 10W-40, or even 50, in hotter climates. Lower viscosity oils leave too thin of an oil film upon the critical bearings during start-up, leading to excessive wear. You can use whatever oil you like, it is your bike. However, I strongly suggest staying within the manual's listed viscosity range to achieve the longest life out of the engine. If you want confirmation, invest in an oil analysis. They will run your oil through a gas chromatograph machine, listing the elements found within your oil, indicating wear of key components, including engine bearings. The different bearings are made with specific metals, such as copper, and nickel (I think...) -- these metals do not exist in the rest of the oil path, only in those bearings; spark plugs use a copper core, but it is never exposed to the combustion chamber, as copper would quickly vaporize from the heat of the spark, itself, destroying the plug. They will list the quantity of each metal, as well as their analysis of engine wear, based on the amounts of the various bearing metals found in your engine's oil.

Blackstone Laboratories charges $28 for the analysis, while the kit is free. They have a solid reputation.

I decided several years ago, to save my money, and spend it on more frequent oil changes, using quality oils. Tried the Wal-Mart Synthetics (correct viscosity range, likely not rated JASO anything... oops!), but the bike did not seem to perform properly with it: strange noises, shifting seemed, different... This likely contributed to the clutch wearing out -- grrr! (Stupid owner -- me.) The JASO-MA/MA2 rating is primarily about wet clutches, and whether the oil will work properly with the clutch plates. Not JASO-MA/MA2 rated? Don't use it...

Decided a quality oil, even if it were conventional, in the proper viscosity range, would be better, and less costly, than going down the analysis road. Still using Rotella T4 (now, they changed the name, twice, I think, in the past seven years?), 15W-40, JASO MA/MA2. YMMV. Cheers!

[Nails]

Thanks for the info, as always.
Insignificant comment: gas chromatographs don't really "see" metals, mostly just organics that are at least a little volatile. (I used to run one.) They might use inductively-coupled plasma for the metals, but $28 is way cheap. So probably just atomic absorption spectrometry, looking for only a couple specific metals.

[SgtSlag]

Thanks for the insight. I know of the machines, and spectral analysis theory and principal (studied astronomy for years, their bread and butter method of analysis of stars and planets). Never worked on the actual machines. Have walked by them, many times, in a laboratory, at work.

I believe there are only a few metals which they look for. The critical bearings are made of only a few types of metals, so that makes sense. I've read some of their sample analyses. Frankly, I really don't want to know how much my engine's bearings are wearing... They don't give a life-expectancy of the analysed engine, just recommendations as to which bearings are wearing, and a risk recommendation. I don't need the stress of worrying.

Rotella T4 oils (formerly known as "Rotella T") have been used by folks here, for years, and they are recommended by our resident factory expert mechanic, Carl Leo. For those reasons, I do not feel it necessary to have my oil tested. Cheers!