Carb issue, 1998 model.

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tnpete
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Carb issue, 1998 model.

Post by tnpete »

Hello first post, but read way to much the last couple of week.
1998 1200, 32K on the bike. Owner passed away, and bike sat for almost a year. Second owner bought it and they got it running. But never could get it right.
Now the issue is, 4 new carb boots from Kawasaki. Still runs rough, narrowed it down to carb #2. Also this is the second set of carbs. Shop told him it was the carbs. So guy got a second set of carbs. They were rebuild, and still the same issue.
Shop found that using propane to find any leaks. And #2 carb has a leak. Anyone else had a intake leak between the boot and head?
I did have a goldwing that did that in the early 80's. But its rare to have that issue. Makes it wonder if its just a bad boot?

For the Bikes age, its in great shape. Clean and paint is in great shape. Needs some wax, but that is about it.

Looking forward to getting this bike running. And take a few trips on the old gal. Also bought it cheap enough I could scrap it if it came down to that. But thinking its a diamond in the rough.
Also came with 2 stereo's. Extra set of carbs, Cover, helmet and trailer :woohoo:

Pete
West Tn

This pic was after setting for about a year.

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Re: Carb issue, 1998 model.

Post by Nails »

tnpete wrote: Fri Oct 04, 2019 6:03 pmNow the issue is, 4 new carb boots from Kawasaki. Still runs rough, narrowed it down to carb #2. Also this is the second set of carbs. Shop told him it was the carbs. So guy got a second set of carbs. They were rebuild, and still the same issue.
I don't get whether this is a new issue or a persistent one. What were they trying to fix when they did the boots and carbs?

I should think that replacing the boots and swapping the carbs pretty much rules out a persistent intake leak on #2. Did you confirm this leak? Not so sure about using propane, but you could spray WD40 on it to see if it exacerbates the misfire.

If I'm understanding you correctly, it sounds like a misdiagnosis. I'd consider some closer testing of the spark, as well as a compression check. You might check the spark wires and boots, such as swapping to see if the problem follows the wire. If #3 fires right, I doubt if it's the coil. Are the valves adjusted right?

Does it seem to smooth out at higher RPMs?

Mine ran okay at freeway speed -- the misfire was mostly at slower speeds and under loads. Mine also had sat too long. Turned out to be a stuck ring, something I'd never seen anywhere else. I had trouble getting a reliable compression test, and if I had it to do over again I'd take it somewhere to check that. I only figured it out after pouring SeaFoam into the cylinder (piston down), letting it leak into the crankcase, and then pouring some more in while working the piston up and down a few times. I changed the oil, fired it up, and the misfire rather suddenly vanished. (I think the whole problem started with a broken spark plug leading to misfire, carbon buildup clogging the ring, and then sitting too long -- because it didn't run right.)

The SeaFoam also liberated a bunch of crap in my crankcase, perhaps due to too much blowby. And it helped in the gas -- I had to rebuild my carbs, too.
tnpete wrote: Fri Oct 04, 2019 6:03 pmBut thinking its a diamond in the rough.
I'm also thinking that.
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Re: Carb issue, 1998 model.

Post by tnpete »

Nails wrote: Fri Oct 04, 2019 9:05 pm
tnpete wrote: Fri Oct 04, 2019 6:03 pmNow the issue is, 4 new carb boots from Kawasaki. Still runs rough, narrowed it down to carb #2. Also this is the second set of carbs. Shop told him it was the carbs. So guy got a second set of carbs. They were rebuild, and still the same issue.
I don't get whether this is a new issue or a persistent one. What were they trying to fix when they did the boots and carbs?

I bought the bike this way. So no ideal what all was done. I'm thinking this issue may have been there before they started working on it.

I should think that replacing the boots and swapping the carbs pretty much rules out a persistent intake leak on #2. Did you confirm this leak? Not so sure about using propane, but you could spray WD40 on it to see if it exacerbates the misfire. Are the valves adjusted right?

I agree with the boots changed that should rule that out. And all 4 boots were replaced. And propane will find a leak where WD40 would not. I did not do any of the above. Just got the bike back home today. Valves or anything like that no ideal. Just that the guy that bought it new. Passed away. Then the bike sat for a year.

If I'm understanding you correctly, it sounds like a misdiagnosis. I'd consider some closer testing of the spark, as well as a compression check. You might check the spark wires and boots, such as swapping to see if the problem follows the wire. If #3 fires right, I doubt if it's the coil.

Does it seem to smooth out at higher RPMs?

Mine ran okay at freeway speed -- the misfire was mostly at slower speeds and under loads. Mine also had sat too long. Turned out to be a stuck ring, something I'd never seen anywhere else. I had trouble getting a reliable compression test, and if I had it to do over again I'd take it somewhere to check that. I only figured it out after pouring SeaFoam into the cylinder (piston down), letting it leak into the crankcase, and then pouring some more in while working the piston up and down a few times. I changed the oil, fired it up, and the misfire rather suddenly vanished. (I think the whole problem started with a broken spark plug leading to misfire, carbon buildup clogging the ring, and then sitting too long -- because it didn't run right.)

The SeaFoam also liberated a bunch of crap in my crankcase, perhaps due to too much blowby. And it helped in the gas -- I had to rebuild my carbs, too.
tnpete wrote: Fri Oct 04, 2019 6:03 pmBut thinking its a diamond in the rough.
I'm also thinking that.
Going to throw a new battery on it tomorrow or Monday. No rush, as I have a big Hornet nest being build right by the shop door. :!! Will spray those down tonight. Then get the bike inside.
Will start going through it, seeing what I can find.


But when the shop owner told me. With propane it make the idle speed up. It has to be sucking air somewhere for it to do that. :hmm:
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Re: Carb issue, 1998 model.

Post by ekap1200 »

You may want to CLOSELY look at how they put the carbs back on..... I have seen far too many carb installs done and not had the back of the boots all the way on the carb's It may be on most of the way but folded over somewhere. As for spark ; if you know of someone who has a GOOD working knowledge of how to read a meter have them check the plug caps and secondary coil resistance. Did this machine live its life outdoors or in a garage ? Did the spark plug well's appear to have been filled with crap and someone let some dirt down into the cyl's while doing a plug change ? Are the ends of the coil wire's green with corrosion ? ( if so , clip 1/4 inch of wire off and put the caps back on..... Is the fuel tank clean or showing signs of rust ? Are the carb's even close to being properly sync'ed ? Did the bowls show any signs of water or rust ? Have you or the dealer ever looked for signs that a rodent spent a winter in the air box ? Any noticeable difference in exhaust between left and right outer pipe's ? Was the main fuel line ever replaced with auto hose and a hose clamp and now the swing are has bent the 90 deg tube to the point of barely being open ? Is this a California model ? Is the choke cable working properly ? Give us more detail. running rough WHEN / just at idle, or going down the road at 2,000- or 3000 , just taking off ?
Have you looked AND CAN YOU LOOK at the fuel filter. What is you skill level , as it depends how we can help you with whatever skill level you may have. Far to many engine's have been done in by a DIY'er doing a simple spark plug and air filter change, for LACK of cleaning the area up before opening a hole up into the jug's.........Number 2 cyl, can be tricky to get to if one does not remove the 2 phillips screws from the cable spliter and fishing the wire up and around, most tent to fight it and cracking the cap....

And know when you don't know something, use common sense and don't do a thing unless you are sure you can handle the job and have the right tooling......

For all we know ,,,, it could be just a 1/8 turn of the sync. screw to get things purring again....
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Re: Carb issue, 1998 model.

Post by tnpete »

ekap1200 wrote: Sat Oct 05, 2019 3:30 pm You may want to CLOSELY look at how they put the carbs back on..... I have seen far too many carb installs done and not had the back of the boots all the way on the carb's It may be on most of the way but folded over somewhere.

Used my bore scope, boots are all in place.

As for spark ; if you know of someone who has a GOOD working knowledge of how to read a meter have them check the plug caps and secondary coil resistance. Did this machine live its life outdoors or in a garage ?

Just by looking at the bike. It was a Garage Queen its whole life. Paint is not faded out, seats are still in perfect shape.

Did the spark plug well's appear to have been filled with crap and someone let some dirt down into the cyl's while doing a plug change ? Are the ends of the coil wire's green with corrosion ? ( if so , clip 1/4 inch of wire off and put the caps back on.....

Checked spark this morning. Its good and strong. Have not dug deeper into the wires yet. But will soon.

Is the fuel tank clean or showing signs of rust ? Are the carb's even close to being properly sync'ed ? Did the bowls show any signs of water or rust ? Have you or the dealer ever looked for signs that a rodent spent a winter in the air box ?

Tank is almost clean, does have just a start of rusty spot or 3. But there only just big enough to see if you have a bright light. But going to run the bore scope down and check the lower section. I'm thinking that is going to be the root of the issue.
Airbox Shop owner told me he checked it, When he had the carbs out. But who knows, will be checking that also. When I pull the tanks and carbs.


Any noticeable difference in exhaust between left and right outer pipe's ? not that I can see.
Was the main fuel line ever replaced with auto hose and a hose clamp and now the swing are has bent the 90 deg tube to the point of barely being open ?
Lines look factory.
Is this a California model ?
No and glad of that.
Is the choke cable working properly ?
Yes
Give us more detail. running rough WHEN / just at idle, or going down the road at 2,000- or 3000 , just taking off ?
Right now its even hard to start, draining the bowels. Found some small trash. So will take care of that.

Have you looked AND CAN YOU LOOK at the fuel filter.

Yes and it looks dirty, even tough Shop told me a new one was put on 100 miles ago. Before I bought it.

What is you skill level , as it depends how we can help you with whatever skill level you may have.
Have rebuild bikes, car's semi trucks and boat engines. But not a Mechanic.

Far to many engine's have been done in by a DIY'er doing a simple spark plug and air filter change, for LACK of cleaning the area up before opening a hole up into the jug's.........Number 2 cyl, can be tricky to get to if one does not remove the 2 phillips screws from the cable spliter and fishing the wire up and around, most tent to fight it and cracking the cap....

Spark plug area is clean but Shop also put new plugs in.

And know when you don't know something, use common sense and don't do a thing unless you are sure you can handle the job and have the right tooling......

Agree 100% Common Sense I have. Not the smartest tool in the shed. But know when I'm over my head.

For all we know ,,,, it could be just a 1/8 turn of the sync. screw to get things purring again....

Thinking its way past that 1/8th of a turn. And the shop that was working on the bike. He it 3 weeks behind, so much be doing something right. For people to wait that long to get work done. But I don't know never met or heard of him. Until I went to look at this old bike.
But then again he would rather push a HD then work on anything else. This bike was one of his best friends projects.

Gene Kap.
Next week, going to start on it. Get the gas tank off and make sure its clean for sure. Go back and make sure the carbs are clean. New filter and air filter. Start from scratch and then I will know what has been done. And what has not been done.
Not saying I don't trust the mechanic that was working on it. But then again if I do all this. Then I have peace of mine. And can ride the bike without wondering what is going to happen next.
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Re: Carb issue, 1998 model.

Post by tnpete »

OK, after checking the fuel tank with a bore scope. Found trash in the tank. Along with some rust just starting. More like sand particals of rust. But more in the tank, then I can allow.Tank is off 1 hour 50 minutes. Will get the stuff to take care of the tank.

Now Big issue :dm: Shop owner told me OOOhh it has a new fuel filter. Don't think that filter has been off in a while.
Also fuel pump wires look bad. One has no insulation left on it. Also one up above #4 sparkplug is the same way. Found a 40 amp fuse in the pump spot. :gmad:

Airbox and carbs will come off tomorrow. Check those out, and start from scratch.

Anyone tried Soda Blasting the inside of there tank? I have a sand blaster. Take 10 minutes to swap over to soda. And blast away all the issues inside. Then coat the inside to prevent any rust from happening again.

Also going to order new fuel lines for it. Found a set, and thinking it would be a good thing to swap those out now.

Rear Shocks are draining now also. Being I had to take them part way off. Just took them off and have them draining. Will replace the oil in those while I'm doing this work.

Also change out the rearend gear oil while I'm doing this . Anything else anyone can think of, let me know.

Not sure why sellers and mechanics find it is ok to lie. To sell something. :bat: Guess I'm just different. But if I know something I will tell a buyer. And will sure not cover up an issue.
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Re: Carb issue, 1998 model.

Post by cushman eagle »

Yes,tnpete,There is something else I would recommend to check out.That is the ignition switch harness that goes past the left side of the neck of the frame, to the ignition switch.This harness was often tied too tight to the neck and as the fork was turned it stressed the wires in the harness and they would break.When I bought mine at 22,000 miles ,it already had 2 patches in the wires,I had another failure,and rewired the harness leaving it untied at the neck.There is a post on this topic on this forum.
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Re: Carb issue, 1998 model.

Post by tnpete »

cushman eagle wrote: Mon Oct 07, 2019 1:26 am Yes,tnpete,There is something else I would recommend to check out.That is the ignition switch harness that goes past the left side of the neck of the frame, to the ignition switch.This harness was often tied too tight to the neck and as the fork was turned it stressed the wires in the harness and they would break.When I bought mine at 22,000 miles ,it already had 2 patches in the wires,I had another failure,and rewired the harness leaving it untied at the neck.There is a post on this topic on this forum.
Welcome to a great Voyager family :woohoo:
Thanks I had read about that. But forgot about it now. so going on the list.
And thanks for the welcome.
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Re: Carb issue, 1998 model.

Post by tnpete »

Here's the fuel filter he told me was replaced.
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what else was a lie?

Burned wire, and its like that a ways up towards the fuse box.
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Re: Carb issue, 1998 model.

Post by VoyKimmer »

If you change final drive oil only use Hypoid 80/90 Gear Lube 180cc and no more otherwise it will leak out the front. Do not fill it up to the threads otherwise it will pressurize and force it’s way out,
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Re: Carb issue, 1998 model.

Post by tnpete »

VoyKimmer wrote: Mon Oct 07, 2019 12:34 pm If you change final drive oil only use Hypoid 80/90 Gear Lube 180cc and no more otherwise it will leak out the front. Do not fill it up to the threads otherwise it will pressurize and force it’s way out,
Thanks and will be looking for something to measure out the Gear lube. Along with Shock oil and fork oil
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Re: Carb issue, 1998 model.

Post by cranky »

... $ or dime store.... plastic or glass measure cups.... also get
some funnels, long / skinny... just for grins... see
if they have some good sized long handle vanity mirrors...
always good for looking where ya can't see.... GBG
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Re: Carb issue, 1998 model.

Post by cushman eagle »

Oh,Yeh,something else to check. :rolling:
When you change your rear tire,check to see if your final drive vent hole is drilled. :hmm:
Mine was dimpled to drill it,but was not drilled.I notice a little seeping out the front of the drive shaft after a long[150+mile ride].
That topic is on the forum also.
The last post reminded me. :gig:
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Re: Carb issue, 1998 model.

Post by tnpete »

cushman eagle wrote: Tue Oct 08, 2019 12:29 am Oh,Yeh,something else to check. :rolling:
When you change your rear tire,check to see if your final drive vent hole is drilled. :hmm:
Mine was dimpled to drill it,but was not drilled.I notice a little seeping out the front of the drive shaft after a long[150+mile ride].
That topic is on the forum also.
The last post reminded me. :gig:
Added to the list, but that list is 9' long now. Man I should have it back on the road by spring time. I got the carbs off this am. Cleaning them in the Ultrasonic Cleaner. All parts look perfect, but were dirty. Not bad but needed cleaning.
Also fuel line from the pump to the filter. Looked to be kinked. In the bend after the fuel pump. Just looked like it had softened up. And was not opened up all the way?

I found the wire that had burned all the insulation off it. Turned out to be the main ground. From the engine up to the frame above #4 Plug. Got all the wires apart, and looks like 3 will have to be repaired with new wire. Some fool sure loved blue tape. Makes me wonder if it may have been from the trailer plug wires?
Just trying to find where and what caused the issue. Guess I will pull the front Fairing off tomorrow. And go deeper into the wiring.
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Re: Carb issue, 1998 model.

Post by Nails »

Doesn't much sound like those carbs were rebuilt.
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Re: Carb issue, 1998 model.

Post by tnpete »

Nails wrote: Wed Oct 09, 2019 4:49 pm Doesn't much sound like those carbs were rebuilt.
Your 100% right on that. Plan it to get the carbs back on tomorrow. Then the airbox, and see what it dose. Its easy now, so tank and stuff will go back on after carbs are done. And I have to wait for my Vacuum gauges to get here. Then finish it up after that. So know it will be after 20th. Will be gone all next week.
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Re: Carb issue, 1998 model.

Post by ekap1200 »

That's a shame about your grounding issue. what does the B+ from the starter sol, look like.....perhaps some hack shorted a wrench . from B+ to the frame if its the main ground wire, which goes from B-(battery post) to the right-side-top/rear of the engine. And is not run in a harness , and goes along the right side of the bike towards the battery. It is one of those things where only some-one right there at the bike can diagnose. Keep us informed and posting pic's.
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Re: Carb issue, 1998 model.

Post by cbrfxr67 »

sub'd,...love seeing a bike come back to life,...
Aholes lying about work done,...Image
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Re: Carb issue, 1998 model.

Post by tnpete »

Sorry been out of town for over a week. Getting back to the bike now. But not as fast as I would like.
I also need to address the drive shaft boot also. Found its cracked almost all the way around. Not sure if this part is going to be fun to change out or not?
I did get the carb's on before leaving town. Along with the air box. Then was going to hook up the gas line. That's when I seen it should have been hooked up before putting the box on. :oops:

Should have it back together this next week. But then again Dr Appointments all week. But can work a few hours per day on the bike. :woohoo:
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Re: Carb issue, 1998 model.

Post by cushman eagle »

tnpete,changing your drive shaft boot would be an excellent time to:
1 Check your final drive oil,and check your gear box vent hole.
2 Grease the splines on both end of your drive shaft,[use a copy of a service manual to remove the drive shaft being extremely careful not to lose the retaining pin :help: ]
3 Check the condition of the u-joint
4 Regrease and torque the swingarm bearings.
As careful as I have been doing #2 twice, I have lost 3 retaining pins,and keep 2 spares. :rolling: :laughing:
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