Cruise Relay

[triton28]

I may be not seeing clearly here but while perusing the electrical circuit schematic I noticed that the cruise control relay appears to function differently than the other 6 relays in that the CC relay is shown as NC, ( normally closed ), and the other 6 are shown as NO (normally open ).
So I am wondering if this CC relay is actually a different part number than the other 6, or if it is just different circuitry that operates this CC relay and it is in fact the same as the other 6 relays.
The online suppliers only identify the relays by the number of relays in a group, either 3 or singly, and I suspect the part number change shown on these illustrations is due to the different style of holders as opposed to the actual relay part number contained within the rubber holders.
Any ideas?
Dave

[Nails]

Don't know about that particular relay, but I've also noticed that the relays only seem to be different with respect to whether you get three (with the holder) or one (with or without a single holder). I've also noticed that these have very wide application: the Toyota part listed in Dollar-for-Dollar here appeared completely identical to the (presumably) MaKa stock relay I was replacing. And the parts store database listed about three or four alternative suppliers. (All at like one tenth the price of MaKa OEM.)

So I'd be mighty surprised if they designed an incompatible relay just for this one circuit -- and then somehow mis-identified it in the parts manual.

I carry one relay as a spare because I think it'll work anywhere on the bike. I do this, of course, to ensure I never have a relay failure on the road. (I also carry one spare coil, for all the same reasons. These do have different PN, even though left and right coils are identical. They have a detachable mount that's reversible.)

[VoyKimmer]

All the relays are the same. I also use the Toyota relay made by denso . Good relay and you can find them as cheap as a couple bucks on eBay. Before I hard wired my 10 pin connector I was going thru every relay except the aux relay on my bike. It was driving me nuts. They would click but something inside did not make contact. Went thru fan relay, brake relay , cruise relay, main relay , all of them. Haven’t had a problem With any failures since I hard wired my 10 pin connector. Over 10 years now. I was swapping relays around every couple of weeks and many times on the road. I to still carry a spare but never have needed it in over 10 years.

[Nails]

I may be not seeing clearly here but while perusing the electrical circuit schematic ...

And Dave, I have to ask: Did you just wake up of a morning, whisky-up your coffee cup, and decide to take a gingerly stroll through the ol' schematic?

(At 4:30 in the morning!!!)

[triton28]

Hey nails;
I was perusing the schematic for erock's post about his CC. Yes while I am waking up I turn on the forum and see what's new, force of habit I guess.
That CC relay bugs me though because it is even illustrated differently on the Supplement schematic in that the energizing coil is shown on the CC relay but not on the illustration of the other 6----must be something to do with the circuitry. Not being an electrical engineer I can't say for sure.
One wouldn't think there would be one different relay but........
Dave

[Nails]

I'm almost gawd-fer-sure that I replaced my CC relay with a plain ol' ordinary one, and it worked fine. I was part-swapping at the time, and honestly don't even remember what I was actually fixing. I mean, I'm pretty dam sure they're all the same.)
(I still think you're gaming us and have a wizz-bang XII schematic app.)

[triton28]

It could be that a NC relay is differentiated on a schematic by showing the energizing coil, ( as well as the closed circuit of course), and perhaps traditionally a NO relay does not show the energizer coil. Just a guess on my part.
No Nails, no gaming nor whiz bang app, just dumb curiosity on my part. I'm going to remove all my spare relays from their holders just to see. We'll get to the bottom of this yet.
Regards,
Dave

[Van Voyager]

Typically any relay offers N/O and N/C contact connections. Which connections are used depends on the the particular needs of the circuit.

My guess is it's shown different on the diagram so that if the circuit needs to be tested, the troubleshooter needs to realize that it's the N/C contact function of the relay that need to be tested.

[triton28]

Van Voyager;
I had thought that but if the trigger side of this NC relay is energized to open the circuit then the mechanics inside the relay would require some type of tensioner to keep the circuit closed when the trigger is not energized. This appears to be the reverse of the other NO relays which would have some form of tensioner to keep the circuit open when the trigger is not energized.
As I said to Nails: 1) I am going to remove all the spare relays I have and check the part numbers, and I will open some up to see if I can find any differences and observe the construction and 2) I am in no way electrically inclined so I may be missing something very simple here and I may have a incorrect understanding of how a relay actually works.
Dave

[Nails]

Maybe instead of going all destructo, just apply 12V and see whether it switches open or closed?

[Van Voyager]

Van Voyager;
I had thought that but if the trigger side of this NC relay is energized to open the circuit then the mechanics inside the relay would require some type of tensioner to keep the circuit closed when the trigger is not energized. This appears to be the reverse of the other NO relays which would have some form of tensioner to keep the circuit open when the trigger is not energized.

Relays can be either 'momentary' or 'latching'.

Momentary ones change their state closed/opened only when voltage is applied.

Latching relays change state and stay there when a voltage pulse is applied - the voltage doesn't have to be maintained. Typically a pulse of the opposite polarity is required to change the relay to its opposite state, although there are such things as dual coil relays one to open/close, the other to close/open (which might make sense for a cruise control relay - one coil to turn it on and one to turn it off since the on/off triggers can come from different circuits.

[triton28]

Good morning to all;

Maybe instead of going all destructo, just apply 12V and see whether it switches open or closed?

That is a better idea for checking the relays. I was going to try them with voltage once I had them out of the holders but I suppose I could just as easily try them in the holders, except for the fact of wanting to actually compare part numbers of the relays. But I could remove just those, for part number comparisons, which exhibited any differences I suppose. We'll see.
Van Voyager;
thank you for the insight regarding the operation of relays as I was unaware of the different types of relay functions. When it comes to electrical switching I am not very knowledgeable.

(which might make sense for a cruise control relay - one coil to turn it on and one to turn it off since the on/off triggers can come from different circuits.

After I test a few I will have a better idea as to whether or not I am just wasting my time here but I keep coming back in my mind to the differing graphic depictions, and possible internal machinations I am assuming, between the relays. Why did they depict this CC relay differently? Maybe it is as you posted to advise a person doing troubleshooting of the CC system to look for a NC condition of this otherwise standard relay. I will continue my explorations into the mysteries of relays.
Don Quixote lives in Nova Scotia.
Dave

[Nails]

Tilting at relays.

there are such things as dual coil relays one to open/close, the other to close/open (which might make sense for a cruise control relay - one coil to turn it on and one to turn it off since the on/off triggers can come from different circuits.

In the off-chance it's relevant, I recall that the CC on/off pushbutton is normally closed and the Set pushbutton is normally open. Or maybe the other way about.

[cranky]

Nails, I'd vote for the other way around, sitting at NO and
pushed to NC.... but logic is what it is....

[ekap1200]

I have been following this post. And it looks like it time to review the supplement to the service manual. Pages 15-16 and 15-17 show the diagram clearly. It shows a N/O configuration that is latched , breaking the latch requires depressing the c/c main switch's off button. All of the cancel switch's are N/C opening up any one will open B+ to the control unit , deactivating the clutch . the relay will still be latched and unlatched by either the main/switch's off button, or the engine's run switch. Or the key switch when you stop.
NOTE--relay will not latch if the diode pack is missing. item #6 page 15-16. And the control will not SET unless all cancel switch's are closed, Note-- carb switch will stay open if there is no free play on the cables. Follow the specs when adjusting cable free play.. Most items can be checked using just a mechanics test light. but follow guidelines on page 15-15 to avoid damaging any electronics .
As with the problem with the ignition , same thing can happen in the C/C handle-bar harness.....a wire could be broken...Rare instance but I had one here with that problem a while back..

[Nails]

Okay, I couldn't figure this out the first time I tried, but here's what I'm seeing now.

The main switch is normally "off", and hitting "on" only instantaneously provides current to the BK/W wire. This activates the CC relay, which closes it. Thus, I think the CC relay is n/o, just as you say and just like all the rest of the relays.

However, there isn't any current going to the CC relay (switched side) yet. Only after letting the main switch revert to "off" does the CC relay actually receive current, via the BR wire. Thus, only when you release the main switch (pushbutton) does current actually get to the the cruise control unit and the CC "on" light (Y/R wire). This Y/R current also goes to the control unit (pin 10) -- the manual says it should read 12V only after hitting the main switch "on".

Note that when this Y/R wire has current, it powers the CC relay to stay on. This power comes from the Y/R wire via a diode. Thus, 1) when you hit the main-switch, it powers the CC relay to close it; 2) when you release the pushbutton, it provides current to the now-closed CC relay to power the Y/R wire; 3) which provides current back to the CC relay coil to keep it "on". This CC relay is n/o, but once closed it stays that way until you shut off the bike.

(I think a latched relay would have a reversible coil. Power the coil one way and it switches; power it the other way at it switches back. The "latched" part means that it stays whichever way you leave it. These relays need power to stay closed. They're just actuated or not.)

So yeah, I think the CC relay is n/o just like all the rest of the relays.


(This reminds me of a pickup I had. Its frame was so bent that I had to look in the mirror to see if I was going to where I thought I was coming from.)

[ekap1200]

So Nails, you have the diagram, the sys needs the latched relay because the control unit needs B+ to maintain its memory of pulse counts for the ( RESUME ) NO MATTER what cancel switch is opened. Once the relay is un-latched B+ is removed from the control and memory of pulse counts is lost until latched and a new set count is input. The relay ( contact ) is at B+ from the N/C off button on the faux tank. It has B+ from the engine stop switch.
Did you understand what i said about the cable free play ? the switch lever on the carb pivots when you twist the throttle back and opens that switch before it pulls the carb back to the idle position.
Gene K.

[triton28]

Thank you ekap1200 for that encompassing explanation. After looking at your referenced pages I see that indeed the relay is illustrated as similar to the other relays in the harness.
Perhaps I should look a little more diligently, as you have, before asking.
Thanks to all those who have responded as I now have a better understanding of the intricacies of the cruise circuitry.
Regards,
Dave

[Nails]

Thanks.

> the control unit needs B+ to maintain its memory of pulse counts for the ( RESUME ) NO MATTER what cancel switch is opened.

Yeah, I see that pin 10 is parallel with the "on" light, so both are on together. But this doesn't have any relationship to the cancel switches or control unit (other than that downstream parallel connection).

The Set light is grounded through the control unit, which breaks that ground for any kind of cancel. I mean, CC "on" doesn't have anything to do with Set "on", which is dependent on the cancel switches. (Other than Set won't turn on without CC already being on.)

So I don't quite follow what maintaining current to the CC relay has to do with any cancel switches. But since the main switch is instantaneous, without that current from the diode the CC relay would turn back off as soon as you quit pushing the switch.

[Edit: (okay, I've done about 14 edits) Yes, I see that it's necessary to keep the CC on to keep the control unit on, so it can remember the speed setting. It's also necessary to keep it on so you can Set a speed in the first place. I don't think this CC relay is any more "latched" than any other relay. This circuitry is merely keeping the CC relay coil activated to keep the CC on.]

> The relay ( contact ) is at B+ from the N/C off button on the faux tank.

There's one misunderstanding: when I moved that cruise stuff to the fairing, I forgot that I put the "off" switch there. I didn't remember I ever even had an "off" switch.

In the photo, my CC is on the fairing beneath the hand grip: the two lights (amber, which I can't really see in bright light) and the main "off" push-switch. I removed this stuff from the fake tank because that reminded me of a golf cart (why I debadged the whole bike). And I can't really read the maps there, either (at least not when riding). So, I'll probably make some sort of restaurant purse to attach to the velcro that holds the maps on now.

I also like not having that second-story of radio crap on the left switchset -- still don't need no stinkin' radio. (Barry, this is the other side of the fairing thing you asked about.) But the radio/tape switch is on the first story, and I hate carting around unused stuff. So I "reassigned" the CC main switch "on" to it. I wish I could make it my CC "cancel" switch (reassigned from that carb switch that I don't like, below), but I think they are "normally" the opposite. I might eventually fab something for a new "second story", putting all the CC stuff there, including a new cancel switch reassigned from the carb switch, below.

shorty-rear.JPG (95.25 KiB) Viewed 331 times

Which led to a second misunderstanding: Since I forgot about that "off" switch, I was reading (on the schematic) the main switch as if it were a 2-pole one. I mean, I though it was n/o for an "on" side and n/c for "off", and pushing it reversed that. (Last night, I was puzzled over how I got away with replacing it with just a single-pole switch.) This is my misunderstanding that probably confused the hell out of Gene.


And yeah, I get the carb cancel switch. Next time I'm in there, I'll completely remove it. I don't think it provides any additional safety and is a PITA under hand. I think I'll re-wire it to become a manual cancel switch on the fairing -- just because I don't like blipping the brakes.

Back to the photo, I know this kind of customization drives most folks here nuts. Oh well, it's my bike. I also like the narrower and simpler handlebars.

[triton28]

Thanks for that Nails.