Starting - need advice diagnosing

[KPAX]

I have owned my Voyager 12 since July. The first two months I owned the bike it started fantastic, it turned over fast and immediately revved up to 2,800/3,000 rpm (with choke on). Now it still turns over fast, which leads me to believe that the battery is just fine but it takes longer (a couple seconds) to fire up. When it does catch it only revs at 1,000 rpm or so (with the choke on max), then after a couple of seconds it races up to 2,800/3,000 rpm.

I am guessing that I need to clean the choke air passages in the carbs (I don't really want to clean these carbs). Other than the above it runs fine, pulls well under load and has no hesitations.

[cranky]

.. sounds normal, if it's been sitting for a while.... takes a bit for the
carbs to fill up and function.... not a wrench! ..

[KPAX]

I'm not sure what you are saying; the float bowls are full when I stop the bike.

[Nails]

I'm not sure what you are saying; the float bowls are full when I stop the bike.

They evaporate empty over a few days or so. Like Cranky said, it's common for XII to need to crank a bit to refill them. See threads about bypassing the starter relay.

[KPAX]

Awesome - thanks I appreciate it.

[ekap1200]

Awesome - thanks I appreciate it.

Have you tried NOT giving it full choke, it should fire up to around 2000 then neck it down to 1500~1200 rpms. when you want to add the priming ( N/C normally-closed ) switch it is easy, just remember to use a quality switch with a waterproof rubber boot. Also drain the carb / bowls ( a few times a season ) Pick yourself up a can of Sea-Foam gas additive , about 11.00 a can follow instructions ( 1oz per gal. ) Also this winter you may want to RPL the fuel FLT. And maybe even look at the air FLT.
Then enjoy the ride

Gene Kap.

[HMB Don]

Spark plugs, all of my Kawasakis. From my GPZ550, concours and Voyager1200. One day they start normal and the next what you describe. Its cheap just 4 spark plugs.

[cushman eagle]

I prime my carbs any time the bike sits over about 4 days.
I installed a starter relay bypass switch about 9 years ago,using info I got on this site.Priming will have it start like it ran yesterday

[Barry]

If you think you need to primer your carbs, there's an experiment you can do. Next time it sits for a while and you're ready to start it, turn the key to on and just bump the starter button. This will turn on the headlight and also put power to the fuel pump. You should be able to hear the pump run. Once it stops your carbs are now full of fuel and it will start right up.

[Nails]

I didn't know you could pimp the starter circuit like that.
I installed a bypass switch with a rain-proof condom inside the cubbyhole in the left fairing. My routine: unlock the door, flip the switch, use the key in the ignition to prime the carbs, flip the switch back, start the bike, close the door, and lock it next time I stop. Just blipping the starter is a lot less complicated.

[cranky]

... that one peeked my interest too... will try it... tho I really do hope
all condoms are "rain proof".... GBG

[Barry]

I installed a bypass switch with a rain-proof condom inside the cubbyhole in the left fairing. My routine: unlock the door, flip the switch, use the key in the ignition to prime the carbs, flip the switch back, start the bike, close the door, and lock it next time I stop.

Why hide the switch with the condom cover? You could mount it where down was off, and up was......... prime. If it was out where everyone could see it, it could be a conversation starter!

[Nails]

I was thinking it might be a bike un-starter.
And while riding I don't really need a potential erection in my view.

(Curious whether that survives the mods.)

[cranky]

... first "one" doesn't have a chance!!!! GBSEG

I went out and tried the starter tap thingy... my scoot has been sitting
for a couple weeks... had my hearing aids cranked up so I could hear
any "action".... tap and wait... tried to start for a second, nada..
tried again.... nada... methinks my scoot doesn't work that way... sigh...

[Nails]

I've noticed that at least a few XII relay circuits use an odd design: the relays close to make something happen (like turn the cruise control on), but they don't use latched relays (which mechanically stay on without using any current). Instead, the circuits have a feedback sort of thing so that, once the relay gets power, another part of the circuit is energized to maintain that power. So, once on, it stays on, after you let go of the "on" switch. The cruise control circuit stays on until that other current (besides the one that switched the relay in the first place) gets interrupted; and all the CC cancel switches are in that circuit -- tripping any of them opens it, turning the CC relay off (until somebody hits the CC "on" switch again).

(I think this is also why some indicator lights don't work with LEDs: as I recall, some of those circuits flow current in both directions, at different times of course. I also think it explains at least some erratic electrical behavior that periodically crops up -- like why you sometimes can't set the CC. All I remember right now is that it's weird.)

I don't know how the bike turns on the headlight. I'll have to check the wizz-bang app, which I have to use in manual mode because Dave won't tell me how to make it go. But I suspect the headlight relay (different from the starter relay) has a design like the CC: once activated (by letting go of the starter switch -- presumably when the bike is started), it stays on, including turning on the fuel pump along with the headlight.

But maybe this is another electrical difference between '87 and everything later? I'll try to figure it out. Of course, I don't really know what I'm talking about right now.

[Barry]

...

I went out and tried the starter tap thingy... my scoot has been sitting
for a couple weeks... had my hearing aids cranked up so I could hear
any "action".... tap and wait... tried to start for a second, nada..
tried again.... nada... methinks my scoot doesn't work that way... sigh...

Sorry to hear that didn't work for you. That's what I used to do with my '93. I replaced that bike with my current '87 which has unique wiring. For it, all I have to do is turn the key on and drop it into gear. The fuel pump starts right up. Once primed, I put it in neutral and it fires immediately. Oddly, the need to prime went almost completely away after putting the carbs from Carl Leo on. He does have the magic touch. I feel like I picked up some extra horsepower. Mileage isn't as good, but the fun factor went up.

[Barry]

So all this talk about fuel pumps made me go look at various tips I've copied & saved over the years from numerous vxii forums. Here's a good one:

Date Posted: Fri December 31, 2004 1:56:58PM
Author: John Bowman Ohio
Subject: Re: Long crank times
In reply to: John Bowman Ohio 's message, "Re: Long crank times" on Wed December 29, 2004 7:54:40AM

I got out the service manual & a magnifying glass this
morning to see if I could find some way to get the fuel
pump to come on without the starter spinning.

There are four wires on the fuel pump, one of them goes to
the starter relay. When that wire is hot the pump works
even when there is no pulse from the ignition coil.

The problem is that there is another wire on the same contact
of the starter relay that goes to the starter solenoid.
If you put voltage on that wire to activate the pump,
it also activates the starter solenoid & the starter spins.

I pulled the control wires off the starter solenoid and
mashed the starter button.
VOLA!! There pump came on without the starter spinning.

I think I'm going to put a toggle switch in series with
the wire that activates the solenoid, that way I can disable
the starter and hold the starter button in to prime the carbs.
It will also serve as an anti-theft device, not that I'm
too worried about someone stealing my Voyager :)

John
00 Voyager
03 SV650
95 KDX200

FWIW, I had a '98 vxii for a while that had this feature. It works great as an anti theft device. I kept forgetting to put it in the correct position to start it !

[cranky]

Nails, I always (without research...) assumed because our headlight, like
my old Nomad comes on when a starting action is taken, and in the Nomad,
the headlight relay is picked with the successful output of the stator...

Thats why you can tell when your stator is about to take a crap, no headlight!!!

The Nomad had dual stators, don't know about the Voyagers, I'm guessing
we only have one.... used to work for IBM maintaining computers, it was
common for a relay to stay held after picking by one of its own contacts
and stayed that way 'til powered off by "something"....

[Nails]

it was
common for a relay to stay held after picking by one of its own contacts
and stayed that way 'til powered off by "something"....

Yeah, that's a "latched" relay. Ours aren't -- need that weird other circuit to keep them "alive".

[cushman eagle]

So all this talk about fuel pumps made me go look at various tips I've copied & saved over the years from numerous vxii forums. Here's a good one:

Date Posted: Fri December 31, 2004 1:56:58PM
Author: John Bowman Ohio
Subject: Re: Long crank times
In reply to: John Bowman Ohio 's message, "Re: Long crank times" on Wed December 29, 2004 7:54:40AM

I got out the service manual & a magnifying glass this
morning to see if I could find some way to get the fuel
pump to come on without the starter spinning.

There are four wires on the fuel pump, one of them goes to
the starter relay. When that wire is hot the pump works
even when there is no pulse from the ignition coil.

The problem is that there is another wire on the same contact
of the starter relay that goes to the starter solenoid.
If you put voltage on that wire to activate the pump,
it also activates the starter solenoid & the starter spins.

I pulled the control wires off the starter solenoid and
mashed the starter button.
VOLA!! There pump came on without the starter spinning.

I think I'm going to put a toggle switch in series with
the wire that activates the solenoid, that way I can disable
the starter and hold the starter button in to prime the carbs.
It will also serve as an anti-theft device, not that I'm
too worried about someone stealing my Voyager :)

John
00 Voyager
03 SV650
95 KDX200

FWIW, I had a '98 vxii for a while that had this feature. It works great as an anti theft device. I kept forgetting to put it in the correct position to start it !

Barry,You mentioned a toggle switch in the relay circuit for the starter to interrupt the starter,
That is what I did on my'99,and it works great!