Handling questions

[biggersm]

Our Voyager is doing OK overall but we have slid a little here and there recently and sometimes the front end is loose. On the occasions we have lost traction there was other contributing factors (once it was sand on the road and the other time it was wet pavement). We have progressive springs in front and the seals are only a year and half old plus we have fork seal protectors on the sliding surface. The rear suspension is a Progressive 12 Series but with a standard spring rather than heavy duty (but set at the second highest setting it is OK even with Marcia and a load on the back so the HD spring is a low priority). We have the matching pair of Metzler 880s that we keep at 38 front and 46 rear (assuming our low tech stick gage is accurate). Our near term plan may involve buying a superbrace. We have tried to tighten the steering but I can't get the stem locknut to turn anymore than the 1/4 to 3/8 turn we have already done. I would like to enjoy the riding season even with the occasionally loose handling until June and then do an overhaul (maybe with dealer help) prior to a trip to Ellicottville NY. Now for the questions:

1. How many miles have most of you been getting on your wheel bearings? What kind of miles (i.e. all season, wet, etc. or just dry roads).

2. At the risk of lower mileage and possible chunking has anyone experienced better traction with less air in the tires? With the Metzlers what is the lowest safe amount of air pressure?

3. What is the current opinion of Superbrace quality? I think I read where they were not an exact fit. Is installation as simple as lifting the front end, unbolting the old brace and bolting on the Superbrace?

4. Does anyone have experience with the stem nut wrench that Kawasaki sells? Does it do any better than than trying to spin the locknut with a nail (we admit that we also haven't bothered with full fairng disassembly but all the other procedures in the steering manual instructions were followed). Also what is the size of the stem headnut (obviously bigger than the 24mm socket I have so when we loosend it I used vice grips and rubber mallet)?

[Rhinestone Kawboy]

Our Voyager is doing OK overall but we have slid a little here and there recently and sometimes the front end is loose. On the occasions we have lost traction there was other contributing factors (once it was sand on the road and the other time it was wet pavement). We have progressive springs in front and the seals are only a year and half old plus we have fork seal protectors on the sliding surface. The rear suspension is a Progressive 12 Series but with a standard spring rather than heavy duty (but set at the second highest setting it is OK even with Marcia and a load on the back so the HD spring is a low priority). We have the matching pair of Metzler 880s that we keep at 38 front and 46 rear (assuming our low tech stick gage is accurate). Our near term plan may involve buying a superbrace. We have tried to tighten the steering but I can't get the stem locknut to turn anymore than the 1/4 to 3/8 turn we have already done. I would like to enjoy the riding season even with the occasionally loose handling until June and then do an overhaul (maybe with dealer help) prior to a trip to Ellicottville NY. Now for the questions:

1. How many miles have most of you been getting on your wheel bearings? What kind of miles (i.e. all season, wet, etc. or just dry roads).

2. At the risk of lower mileage and possible chunking has anyone experienced better traction with less air in the tires? With the Metzlers what is the lowest safe amount of air pressure?

3. What is the current opinion of Superbrace quality? I think I read where they were not an exact fit. Is installation as simple as lifting the front end, unbolting the old brace and bolting on the Superbrace?

4. Does anyone have experience with the stem nut wrench that Kawasaki sells? Does it do any better than than trying to spin the lock nut with a nail (we admit that we also haven't bothered with full fairing disassembly but all the other procedures in the steering manual instructions were followed). Also what is the size of the stem head nut (obviously bigger than the 24mm socket I have so when we loosened it I used vice grips and rubber mallet)?

1. About 40,000 miles
2. I would not go lower on air pressure in the tires, especially the front. That in itself can cause wobble. I run Dunlop E3's at 36lbs front and 40 rear, and don't have any traction problems.
3. My old style SuperBrace just bolted right on in place of the stock brace. I believe that some have problems with installing them because their forks are slightly twisted when they try to install. First make sure your forks are not twisted before installing the brace.
4. Make sure the little rubber washer is not getting jammed into the stem nut and giving you a false "tightness". You may try searching the forum for additional info on this as I know there is some here. I never used the Kawasaki tool, just a flat blade screwdriver and it worked fine.

[Me Again]

I had a similar problem with my 1300.
Any little debrea on the road or in a parking lot , could get the front end to slide around.Bumped the front tire up from 38 to 42 and it's been good since then.
I am running an off brand tire (something you might pick up at JCWhitney) so my fix may not be your fix.

[HMB Don]

You've got the front fork spring and rear shocks taken care of. The wheel bearings on my Voyager were replaced at about 70k both the front and rear wheel bearings were replaced. Remove your wheel and pay the dealer to R and R the bearings. If you do it yourself get Snap-on, Mac or Cornwell tools.

Superbrace, I have one and it does what it suppose to. When you install the Superbrace make sure that the Axle is loose, Axle pinch bolts are loose, front fender is loose. Remember don't lose the rubber bushing on the front fender and do not replace fender bolts without them. Lay the Superbrace on fork tabs, insert all the bolts to the Superbrace finger tight. I now tighten the Axle, now check and see if the bolts are aligned, if not find out where's the problem. If all is good TIGHTEN ALL BOLTS YOU LOOSENED.

Kawasaki steering stem tool I have it and it works ok. You have to be careful because the fuse box and battery get in the way.

Tires I use the E3s, they are great

I would also check swing arm bearings and that removable frame rail. I found that on my Voyager the removeable frame rail, one bolt was out and the bolt next to it was 2/3 out. These were the two bolts at the top, the bottom two bolts were just loose. I got my Voyager new and no one but me has ever worked on it.

Now even with worn tires I get no head shake, no wallow in faster turns. But sand will make it slide or push the front. But water with the E3s it is very stable.

I hope this helps.

Don Medina
2002 Voyager

[davidl]

Just my 2 cents but I would increase the pressure on the front tire not lower it. I bought a 2000 XII in Oct'08 & it had E2's & my wife did not feel safe on it because of slippage. After reading what everyone had to say about tires, I bought a pair of E3s. I have never been happier. We put 5000 miles on last yr & have never had a problem or concern about tires. I don't know how many miles you have on the Metzlers but that would be the 1st thing I would change. I have heard an equal amount of plusses & minuses on a super brace so that would be the last thing I would do. It seems the original S-brace was machined better than the latter ones. Good luck. Post & let us know what happened. We learn from each other.

[MTN99]

Mike,

Like others have stated above, check Swing arm, Wheel Bearings and stem nut .. I also agree to increase not decrease PSI. on tires. There have been several discussions about the Superbrace, do a search and see what you can gleen from the posts.

As for tires I have run 5 sets of ME880s and have averaged over 18,000 Rear & over 25,000 front. I run 50psi rear & 42psi front...Year round, solo, two up & towing and have had no traction issues. I also run the progressives front /412 H/D spring rear, & still run the stock brace.

How are your tires wearing? My experience has been the MEs tend to cup more with low psi. In my early years with our 91, I was running 38F/45R and they started to cup at 10,000. With the next set I asked and some Masked person from Watsonville that also runs MEs 8-) told me to run the max as stated on the sidewall (42f/50r) and things have been good for me..

Others have had issues on the 880s with separation / chunking, so the decision is yours to make... If you decide to change, try the E3s.

If your tread wear is still ok, I'd try bumping the psi up and see what you think. But if your tires (front or rear) are cupping things will feel squirrely no matter how tight everything else is...

You've got some good advice from others to start with... so best of luck

[David (N. Alabama)]

Mike,
Just for kicks check the tightness of all your front axle bolts.

Those who went to the gathering at Carl Leo's know what I am talking about.

I know I'll be checking mine more often.

[DaveC]

The 880 loose grip after a few years, if your tires are old then that would explain it. The Mezlers get great mileage but if you don't ride but a few thousand a year the tires loose their oils and become hard. Same with the E3. Tread is only part of the tire equation, the compounds used in them are the other.
I tighten the steering head with a long screwdriver I don't use for anything but prying. I tap the nut into place. Yes it well bugger the lock nut up, but you don't have to pound it without mercy, just lightly tap it using a 16 ounce hammer.

[biggersm]

Thank you all; you always help me refresh my memory and help reinforce my eventual decision.

The rear Metzler is practically new (less than 2K with a manufacture date of 9th week of 2009) whereas the front has over about 12-14K and a manufacture date of 17th week of 2006 (they were already old when I put them on in 2007). It doesn't look cupped but the traction feels pretty poor; almost like a wooden tire rather than rubber. I guess I'll try to tighten the steering one more time on my own (this time by slathering the area with spray lube to see if that will help with the stem lock nut gasket). After that I will take it to the dealer for a new tire and wheel bearings. I may skip on the Superbrace for now.

I really want to try something other than a pair of Metzlers but I just can't seem to sync the miles to change out at the same time. I guess we will get another Metzler front tire for now to match the rear and maybe a pair of Dunlops or Avons sometime in 2011.

Thanks again.

[Me Again]

If a tire is old age worn out at 4 years ,it's time to change brands.
I understand dating tires for recalls and or handling issues (like the treads falling off) but 4 years?
I have a Dunlop rear and a JCWhitney front, both over 10 years old,stored for 9 before I bought it.Neither has a handling problem ,no signs of cracking or other old age faults.I probably would not go cross country with them but for 100 or 200 mile trips I have had no problem with them.

[David (N. Alabama)]

If a tire is old age worn out at 4 years ,it's time to change brands.
I understand dating tires for recalls and or handling issues (like the treads falling off) but 4 years?
I have a Dunlop rear and a JCWhitney front, both over 10 years old,stored for 9 before I bought it.Neither has a handling problem ,no signs of cracking or other old age faults.I probably would not go cross country with them but for 100 or 200 mile trips I have had no problem with them.

It is recommended to not run a car or trailer tire more than 8 years. You risk a blow out after that point.

I rely too much on my tires keeping me safe to take the risk of running them too long. You might want to get a strong magnifying glass and look the tire over carefully for micro cracks that can indicate a problem.

[biggersm]

I'm thinking it is time to change out the front wheel bearings. I dropped by the local shop and the measured the tire and said that I had almost 4/32" left on the tread and they say I could probably put a couple more thousand on it. There is no visual sign of cupping either. The had another Metzler in stock for $129 but they seem genuinly interested in making certain I get the milage that a Metzler should get (they didn't look at the date on the old tire however).

Then I put the bike up on the centerstand, grabbed the lower part of the forks down by the axle and shock things around. I could see and hear the wheel move around (the brake rotor was very noticably moving in the calipers).

After the new bearings come in and are installed I will readdress wheather I need to re-tighten the steering. All mechanical tasks for me boil down to those that I have the tools to accomplish and feel comfortable about doing or things I think I should take to a shop but thanks to all of you on this forum (and possession of the shop manual that I was lucky enough to download) I feel comfortable with steering tightening.

I admit that I'm hard on the front end of the bike since about 90% of the time I do 100% of the braking with the front only. I may try to integrate the rear brake more often in the future.

I still plan to try Dunlops or Avons someday but I may have to go to them one tire at a time. What's everybodies opinion about mixed brands as long as they are both bias ply?

Stay tuned!

[bikerking.biz]

It's probably always best to use the same brand and model of tires on any bike. But with that said, I was using one brand of front tire and a Dunlop E2 on the rear for several thousand miles and no problems other than the front wheel wanting to follow grooves in the road (it had those ribbed center tread). I then replaced the front with an E2 and run that for awhile. Then the rear was changed to an E3 with the front still an E2. When the front E2 was worn out went with E3's both front and back. I had no trouble with the previous mixes, but feel better and think things are better with the same all around.

[David (N. Alabama)]

Then I put the bike up on the centerstand, grabbed the lower part of the forks down by the axle and shock things around. I could see and hear the wheel move around (the brake rotor was very noticably moving in the calipers).

That is what we did with my bike at Carl Leo's and were preparing to change out the front bearings. When Carl put a wrench on the front axle nut, it loosened very easily. Retorqed the nut and the movement went away.

I hope you checked the fasteners while you had the bike there.

[Steve in Sunny Fla]

Mike, sliding is from the tires only, they're losing traction. IMO 880's s*ck, they are hard, slow to warm, and slide easily in the wet. I had some on my connie for a while, I couldn't wait for them to wear out, but they never seem to!

the other weirdnesses you'll feel will come mostly from bearings, or from tires that are hunting and following grooves. When I bought my 87 in J'ville, I rode it home in the rain to the tampa area. the tires were (are) 404's that we underinflated, the wheel bearings and stem bearings were ready to fall out. It was an interesting ride to say the least. I never broke traction, but there were plenty of exciting moments!

A caution on tightening the stem bearing. Actually alot of folks try to over - tighten the bearing in an effort to have the resistance act as a semi - fork stabilizer. that's the wrong way to go - if the stem bearing gets to tight, the front end can't self center, and you could end up with a higher speed tank - slapper. BTDT, No fun.

A fork brace will impart some stability to the front end, so that it responds better to your input, but it won't stop the wheels from sliding. I think the way the superbrace is designed lends itself to stiction if everything isn't just right, so if you get one on make sure it's not binding the forks due to having a different centerline width than the axle and triple tree. HTH, Steve

[biggersm]

I just got back from the dealer today. I ended up spending over $200 in combined service and more parts ($70 for a pair of EBC brake pads). When they pulled off the wheel they brought a brake pad in and showed it to me. I already mentioned that most of the time I only use the front brakes but gosh, I personally changed the pads last time and I only go maybe 20K out of them!

Now I have new brake pads and wheel bearings and it does handle much better. I guess I should just leave the steering alone for now (although I still wonder why I can't get that stem nut to tighten anymore)? I will probably not get a superbrace either.

I will finish wearing the 4/32" down to 2/32" on the front tire (the rear is still almost new) and then look at something more "sticky" than Metzlers toward the end of the year and replace as a matched pair.

Thanks for all your advice.