Drive line slop

[Irish59]

Yes, the new tensioner when it was adjusted to the factory spec's did take all the driveline slop out of the drivetrain..just make sure you dont make the timing chain too tight because then it will start wearing on the timing chain guide..ok..Irish59..

[Highway Rider]

I'm having a hard time wrapping my mind around this thing of changing the cam chain tensioner will take the slop out of the drive train
Now for that to me to be even plausible there would have to be so much ware in the piston and rings, connecting rods bearing and journals that it would have to be nonexistent so when you rotated the clutch basket that at that time you would be relying on the cam chain slack from the crank to the cams to be creating the resistance. Now in the video that is posted in this topic showing them rotating the input shaft to the transmission and with it in gear it does not surprise me to see that much slop. There is play in the gear dogs that have to be taken up when you rotate it back and forth plus there in play in 2 gears of the front drive unit and there is also play in the in the 2 gears of the rear drive unit and there is play in the damping rubbers of the rear hub of the rear tire all of which has to be taken up before you would find the start and stop when rotating it back and forth.
Now you say that you replaced the tensioner ,assuming that you are talking about the cam chain tensioner, that would have no effect on the drive line slop. The only affect that that would have would be a difference in performance as it would change the cam timing by either by advancing or retarding the opening or closing of the valves. If the cams were retarded it would give you more HP (higher RPMs) and advancing the cams would give you more torque (low end). What you gain in one you lose in the other. Cams set retarded will build higher RPM you lose torque. Cams advanced will give you more torque but you lose the high end.
Another thing since I'm talking about performance is ignition timing. Retarding the timing gives you torque and advancing it will give you higher RPM but there is no effect here on timing as timing is controlled by the crank and not the cams. Unless it is like in a 350 chevy motor where the distributor is driven by the cam.
So help me understand how just changing the cam chain tensioner would change the dive line slop.
In my opinion.
Performance difference YES.
Drive line slop NO.

[carl leo]

i concur, cam chain looseness will not affect drive line slop. i find carburetor sync is the main culprit for low speed snatching, the carbs need to work together especially at low speed, when the cylinders fight each other snatching and slop will occur.

[Me Again]

Many years ago ,those of us who did not live by the book ,would tighten a cam chain tensioner by putting the bike in gear and back it up until it stopped.
This would put the cam chain in it's loosest position . them you simply set the tension ,tighten everything up and go for a ride .
This would take most of the play from the rear wheel .Took about 5 minutes .
It does not surprise me that it still works .
I am not endorsing this method as it does have a drawback. Overtightened cam chains tend to wear out faster.
Those of you that have a nicely equipped workshop may be able to do more permanent fixes ,but many of us just do what we can or need to do to keep going .
I would rather ride than fix .

[JHD]

I would like to know how adjusting the tension on the cam chain effects advancement or retardation of timing. Really? Love following this thread, brings a smile to my face.

[hank43]

Oh well, guess I'll just jump right into this.

I have a 1700, DIFFERENT BEAST, DIFFERENT ENGINE STYLE, I KNOW, but, I have complained since day one about drive line slop, probably as bad as this video shows. I don't have multiple carbs, or any carbs for that matter. I have Fuel Injection. I did own two Honda CB750 4's, and carb synch or lack therof is exactly what Carl Leo says. It was so critical on the Honda, that I slung a nest of 4 vacuum gauges on a bungi cord on the handlebars, and kept them connected at all times, so I could make micro adjustments on the go. (The 1969 750 had a two into 4 throttle cable, I think the cables stretched at different rates, On my 1975 750, this had changed, and was replaced with rigid linkage, no more problems!)

Now, can anyone tell me why I have so much slop in my driveline? And it's not because of the trike kit, these Kawasakis bang around like old tractors, and you can especially hear it when you shift. KLUNK has been there since day one, when it was a 2 wheeler.
Shut the engine off. Select a gear, any gear, let the clutch out and see how much you can roll before the gears "catch". You can see this by marking the tire and the ground.
Everyone just tells me to ride it, it's normal. So I do, but can't help wondering how much damage is being done.......

BTW, I've had the bike to several shops numerous times for this, no fix as yet.....

hank43

[Kawi_Nut]

On Dec 20th I had the pleasure of meeting Carl. Great guy! He took it for a ride and didn't seem all too concerned with the slop but did say the carb sync was off. Also possible that the drive shaft was going bad, star springs in clutch broken and to get the Amsoil out and run Rotella non synthetic. With the holidays I haven't had time to mess with it but I plan to poke around a bit more and get the carbs synced. I'll keep you posted! I also can't comprehend and fully agree that a timing chain would have no effect on physical play in the drive line. Happy New Year everyone!

[Me Again]

I would like to know how adjusting the tension on the cam chain effects advancement or retardation of timing. Really? Love following this thread, brings a smile to my face.

I doubt that a loose cam chain is going to change your timing ( unless it's ready to fall off ) .\What it will do is make the engine noisy and clunky .
Keeping proper tension will help eliminate this and eventually will translate all the way to the rear wheel .Changing a tensioner is much easier and cheaper than pulling the carbs and having them rebuilt ,So why not start there and see what happens.I am not just saying to keep throwing money into it ,But a legitimate noise that could be the problem and probably could use fixing any ways .
I would bow before the knowledge of a Carl Leo and a few others ,but , occasionally I like to note "This is the way we used to do it " and it still works for a few of us .

[JHD]

I would like to know how adjusting the tension on the cam chain effects advancement or retardation of timing. Really? Love following this thread, brings a smile to my face.

I doubt that a loose cam chain is going to change your timing ( unless it's ready to fall off ) .\What it will do is make the engine noisy and clunky .
Keeping proper tension will help eliminate this and eventually will translate all the way to the rear wheel .Changing a tensioner is much easier and cheaper than pulling the carbs and having them rebuilt ,So why not start there and see what happens.I am not just saying to keep throwing money into it ,But a legitimate noise that could be the problem and probably could use fixing any ways .
I would bow before the knowledge of a Carl Leo and a few others ,but , occasionally I like to note "This is the way we used to do it " and it still works for a few of us .

Well actually changing a tensioner is not easier than taking the carbs off and having them rebuilt. The tensioner is internal and would require an engine removal. Now replacing the cam chain tensioner adjuster is easy.

When I bought my XII it had an obvious rattling noise emitting from the crankcase. The PO says he took it to the Kawi shop and they said not to worry no problem. Well the first thing I did when I got the bike home was join this forum and read everything I could. Couldn't find anything to remedy the problem so I called Carl months later and had quite few very in depth conversations with him on my rattling noise issue in the crankcase. He really didn't have an answer but took the time to figure any and every part in the crankcase that could be causing this. We finally came to the joint conclusion that it had to be the starter chain tensioner. But he could still not wrap his head around that because he had never seen one fail. His suggestion was simple, find a donor motor and swap motors or pull the motor and tear it apart. I chose to tear it apart. So I did find the lump on the tensioner had sheared off which Carl pointed out he never seen before. Went through everything cleaning/painting and now I have a perfect running XII. It comes down to being determined and not being afraid to ask plenty of dumb questions and like Carl will tell you when you are trying hard to get an answer to a problem no question is dumb. The moral of this story is, you have a problem, call Carl Leo.

[Highway Rider]

So to correct the statement in the previous post that I made the slack in a chain will not actually change the cam chain timing under acceleration. That would keep the chain taught and there for the cams in relation to the piston are virtually almost correct. Now when a cam chain wares it will lengthen, so as a chain wares it will actually retard the cams. The only way to correct this is to either replace the cam chain or do what is called indexing the cams. Now when you have slack in a chain the slack has to go somewhere and it will most likely either be in the front or the rear of where the chain runs in the cylinder block. So under acceleration all the slack is in the rear and the cams are as close to normal running position as possible and that means you would have to allow for the chain ware and that means some retardation of the cams will most likely be occurring. Now when you decelerate all the slack moves to the front of the cylinder block and when that happens the cams will advance in relation the the crank from where they were previously under acceleration. So now every time you accelerate and decelerate the cam are moving back and forth between being retarded and advanced. Think of it like a clock let say straight up 12 is where were want it to run. Now as the chain wares the cams will move in the reverse direction, lets say it wares back to 11 (retards the cam) with no slack taken out of the cam chain with the tensioner the cams will advance to 1 when you decelerate. So that would mean that the cams move from 11 to 1 ever time you either accelerate or decelerate. Now when you take the the slack out with the tensioner the cams are still at 11 but do not change to 1 under deceleration they are still at 11 ( no slack in the front of the motor)

This is based off of haveing a rear cam chain tensioner. Because if the cam chain tensioner were in the front it would have just the opposite affect. But I imagine the reason that they are in the rear is that is where the slack of the chain is for most of the life of the engine

[Me Again]

I would like to know how adjusting the tension on the cam chain effects advancement or retardation of timing. Really? Love following this thread, brings a smile to my face.

I doubt that a loose cam chain is going to change your timing ( unless it's ready to fall off ) .\What it will do is make the engine noisy and clunky .
Keeping proper tension will help eliminate this and eventually will translate all the way to the rear wheel .Changing a tensioner is much easier and cheaper than pulling the carbs and having them rebuilt ,So why not start there and see what happens.I am not just saying to keep throwing money into it ,But a legitimate noise that could be the problem and probably could use fixing any ways .
I would bow before the knowledge of a Carl Leo and a few others ,but , occasionally I like to note "This is the way we used to do it " and it still works for a few of us .

Well actually changing a tensioner is not easier than taking the carbs off and having them rebuilt. The tensioner is internal and would require an engine removal. Now replacing the cam chain tensioner adjuster is easy.

Now your picking at straws again.
Because I did not specifically write CAM CHAIN TENSIONER you immediately dug into the bowels of the engine and find the most difficult thing and use that for an example .Most of us could not find a starter chain tensioner if we tried and if we did would have a heck of a time putting it back together.
There is no shame in taking the easiest least expensive route rather than the tearing everything apart .In this case it was noted that there was a noticeable noise in the cam chain so a new cam chain tensioner was a good inexpensive place to start .
I applaud Irish59 for taking all the info he received and getting his bike running better without having to spend a lot of time and money to do it .
Take all the information ,divide it by your skill level and go from there .

[JHD]

I doubt that a loose cam chain is going to change your timing ( unless it's ready to fall off ) .\What it will do is make the engine noisy and clunky .
Keeping proper tension will help eliminate this and eventually will translate all the way to the rear wheel .Changing a tensioner is much easier and cheaper than pulling the carbs and having them rebuilt ,So why not start there and see what happens.I am not just saying to keep throwing money into it ,But a legitimate noise that could be the problem and probably could use fixing any ways .
I would bow before the knowledge of a Carl Leo and a few others ,but , occasionally I like to note "This is the way we used to do it " and it still works for a few of us .

Well actually changing a tensioner is not easier than taking the carbs off and having them rebuilt. The tensioner is internal and would require an engine removal. Now replacing the cam chain tensioner adjuster is easy.

Now your picking at straws again.
Because I did not specifically write CAM CHAIN TENSIONER you immediately dug into the bowels of the engine and find the most difficult thing and use that for an example .Most of us could not find a starter chain tensioner if we tried and if we did would have a heck of a time putting it back together.
There is no shame in taking the easiest least expensive route rather than the tearing everything apart .In this case it was noted that there was a noticeable noise in the cam chain so a new cam chain tensioner was a good inexpensive place to start .
I applaud Irish59 for taking all the info he received and getting his bike running better without having to spend a lot of time and money to do it .
Take all the information ,divide it by your skill level and go from there .

Not picking at straws again. I was pointing out the difference between the cam chain tensioner which is internal and the cam chain tensioner adjuster which is external. Adjuster, easy to remove and replace compared to carbs yes. Tensioner not so easy to replace. Look I think you read someone else's post because if you read mine it definitely talks about the amount of questioning one must do to pinpoint/troubleshoot a problem properly and that seeking out advise from knowledgeable people (Carl Leo) to find your answer is the way to go. Also never once suggested that the OP tear his bike apart. I'm happy for him that he found a simple way to fix his problem, wish all were this easy. As he said he ordered the part and installed it and then realized it wasn't an automatic adjuster and possibly didn't need to replace it. Either or it didn't cost him much in time or money. Win Win!

[Irish59]

Way to go JHD....you tell em..lol,lol...you start with the simple solutions first and see where it takes you..ok..Remember the acronym 'KISS'...if you keep this in mind when you tackle a job,you will come out ahead..Irish59..

[Me Again]

I was pointing out the difference between the cam chain tensioner which is internal and the cam chain tensioner adjuster which is external. .

Sorry ,I was confused . When I looked it up in the parts manual it showed the internal part as the "guide/chain/tensioner"
and the external part as the "tensioner/cam chain" .I guess my parts guide is different from yours .

[JHD]

I was pointing out the difference between the cam chain tensioner which is internal and the cam chain tensioner adjuster which is external. .

Sorry ,I was confused . When I looked it up in the parts manual it showed the internal part as the "guide/chain/tensioner"
and the external part as the "tensioner/cam chain" .I guess my parts guide is different from yours .

You're correct my bad. Sorry bout that.