vacuum leak??? or throttle/fuel issue

[jb32578]

Hi all, just found this forum so I wanted to see if anyone had any tips.

About 8 months ago, I bought a 1986 ZN1300. At that time it would crank over but it wouldn't start, I suspected there was too much fuel flooding it out. Turns out I was right, found the fuel pressure regulator bad. I have yet to find an exact replacement but for now I bought a universal/adjustable fuel pressure regulator, I can get it to start and idle but if I try giving it a little bit of throttle it wants to die. If I feather it just right I can get it the RPMs to jump up pretty high, I'm not too sure this is 100% a fuel issue. I'm starting to lean toward it having a vacuum issue, I say this because when I spray starting fluid (yes I'm a farm boy) the RPMs spike for a few seconds then go back down. I read another post recently where someone had a spark plug wire issue that they believed caused this, I haven't replaced the wires as of today but I am going to this weekend. If anyone has any tips, please send me anything you have. I need to get this thing on the road and my wife off my back about it, please help!

Jason

[Me Again]

The most common hard start issue on a 1300 is valve shims.
With that said ,they usually run pretty good once you get them started .
It is possible that if it sat for awhile your injectors are clogged .
Try this once. Hold the throttle WFO ,push the start button and then turn the key on .
When the bike starts feather the throttle and bring it down slowly as the rpms increase .
Let it idle at a high (2000 )rpm until it warms up .
The adjustable regulator is a great idea if you know what kind if pressure you are creating . I believe it should be around 35 psi.
Good luck with your 86

[jb32578]

Just for giggles I pulled the spark plugs to check them, all of them are dang near black which if I remember my dad correctly means I'm getting too much fuel. Does anyone know any tricks to adjusting the fuel flow with these fuel injected bikes? My fuel injection knowledge is pretty limited, I wish it was carb.......probably would've had it running by now.

[Me Again]

It is very possible you have your adjustable regulator set wrong .Try lowering the pressure some .
I do not have an adjustable regulator so just to test my theory I pinched off the return line and the bike ran about 30 seconds and died .To much pressure

[jb32578]

So I've been playing around with the fuel pressure and I can't seem to find "the sweet spot", nothing seems to work and everything else I've read says I need a fuel injection tuner. The only problem with that is they don't exist! If they do exist then I'm having one heck of a time finding it, kind of like that whole pot of gold at the end of the rainbow thing! I finally found a stock fuel pressure regulator, aside from it being located in Malaysia and my suspicions that it may be BS.....I might have to try it once. I did find a fuel pressure regulator on bikebandit.com but I think I already tried ordering it once from them and ended up they didn't have the part and refunded my purchase. Trying bikebandit.com again, if that falls through I'm ordering the one from Malaysia I guess. Maybe getting the correct fuel pressure regulator is all I need but if anyone knows anything about this elusive fuel pressure tuner, please let me know.

Jason

[trikebldr]

Jason, from your comments I can tell you're not using the manual for this bike to help you diagnose the problem. I now own two 1300s and had one more back when they were new. I've done quite a bit of work on this fuel injection system and they aren't that hard.

First of all, replacing that fuel pressure regulator with something generic and trying to find that sweet spot is impossible since the stock one is not a single pressure regulator. It responds to vacuum and regulates between 32 and 34 psi, IIRC (don't have my manual handy right now). The reason for your stumble on acceleration is it is starving with just 32 psi and not seeing the 34 that it wants for acceleration. BUY THE MANUAL AND READ UP ON THIS!

One common problem with these regulators not working and flooding the engine is if the "dump" line to the tank is plugged up it will not let the regulator bleed off excess fuel and it will over-pressure the injectors, causing exactly what you experienced. Tanks that have a lot of rust build up will do this.

A year ago on eBay you couldn't find any of the salvaged air valves (smog valves) for this bike, but lots of fuel pressure regulators. Now, it's just the opposite! You own a relatively rare bike and need to constantly be scouring eBay for parts, otherwise you will end up sitting and waiting for parts to show up from the salvage dealers.

As for your fuel pressure regulator, if you are an excellent tinkerer and have access to a lathe and mill, you can rebuild these IF, IF, IF the diaphram isn't split. You have to carefully grind away the edge of the cover over the diaphram to open the unit up. They usually fail because too much crud gets past the filter (if one is used at all!!) and it plugs up the needle and orifice. All of that can be cleaned up and made functional again. Then, to reassemble the unit, you have to machine an aluminum, tapered, split clamp to hold the cover back on the base. I've done this twice now for non-functional regulators.

It may sound like a lot of work, but there is no alternative to the stock, MULTI-PRESSURE regulator to make these engines run correctly.

My recommendation for now is to be sure your tank is clean, the dump line is clear and flowing freely to the tank and the regulator's dump line connection is clear, then watch eBay every three or four days to see when a regulator shows up. Also, there are about six major salvage dealers selling on eBay that I have used frequently and all are good sellers. You might spend some time to see who is currently selling and contact them directly and ask if they might have a regulator that just isn't listed.

[jb32578]

Thank you for the information, VERY much appreciated.

I suspected the fuel pressure regulator I bought wasn't working right for the bike, I did manage to find a guy in Malaysia that actually had 6 of them. Sounded a little sketchy but it was purchased through paypay with an invoice so I went ahead and ordered it, should be receiving it around the first week of August so I can't wait to put it in and see what happens.

I replaced the return check valve in the fuel tank, when I pulled the original one out it was completely locked up so I'm sure the combination of that and the fuel pressure regulator was completely screwing me up. Since I am waiting for parts I also decided to take out the fuel injector nozzles just to look them over and clean them out, I found one that looked like it had a torch held to it. Since that part doesn't exist anywhere I've been trolling ebay every few days but haven't found anything that seems to fit my bike. It still works and the spray pattern is really really close to all of the others but if I can find one injector nozzle I think I'll replace it, for now I filed it very lightly to get it shaped like the other ones so hopefully it will get me by until I find another injector.

I have been looking for a manual but seem to come up empty, I've found a few supplemental service manuals but they look pretty thin so I don't think it's what I need. I keep checking ebay and I think I found a manual but if I remember correctly it was located in New Zeeland. I keep hoping to come across one or find someone that "knows a guy", I'll keep on the hunt for now and hope one pops up.

[trikebldr]

Actually, for the systems on the 1300 Voyager, that "thin" supplemental manual is the most important. Get it! Alternatvely, both manuals are available from several sources. I got mine from the KZ1300,com website a few years ago, but I also have the paper versions, too.
If I'm not mistaken, they are also available digitally on this forum, too.

LOL! If that return check valve was locked up in the closed position (likely!) THAT is your problem. If it won't allow the bypassed fuel to return to the tank, it will cause the flooding condition you experienced in the beginning. You might want to put the old regulator back in with that new check valve and see what happens.

I wish you had mentioned ordering that regulator form the guy in Malaysia. I, and possibly a few others, might have joined you to order a few to keep on hand. As you are learning, parts, especially new, are getting scarce, so when they come available, it's only smart to pick them up so we can keep those old girls on the road. I have three used ones in my parts closet that I have tested for function, but who knows how long each will last. Care to share the source of the one you ordered? BTW, my cousin lives in Malaysia, so if he lives close enough, maybe we could get him to pick them up and ship them. BTW, how much did he charge you? Used ones on ebay usually go for about $23-$30.

Something else you might want to consider, keep looking for a full set of intakes with injectors and throttle position sensor. For a while they seemed to come up almost every week. I picked up two of them for $75/each a couple of years ago, then cleaned and rebuilt them. Just don't take each throttle-body loose from the tie bar underneath. That bar maintains the proper spacing to fit the assembly back into the rubber boots so there aren't any air leaks. I simply remove each injector and soak them in full-strength Seafoam and "work" them by applying and removing 12 volts quickly, many times. It usually restores them to perfect spray patterns. Don't remove or mess with the throttle position sensor or you will play hell getting it adjusted again. The special tool to do that hasn't been available for a long time. It can be done, though, by a lot of trial and error adjusting, riding, adjusting, riding, adjusting, riding,......well, you get the point! After removing the injectors, just spray some carb cleaner, or some brake cleaner inside each body to clean it out. Just keep it away from the throttle position sensor.

[trikebldr]

This auction is a "Buy It Now" with free shipping, so the $45 price isn't bad for a NEW manual. And, it's from North Carolina and there are 5 available right now.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1983-1989-Kawas ... qr&vxp=mtr


Here's a "Buy It Now, or Make An Offer" auction for some injectors. A bit pricey, but as he says, make an offer, you never know. Also, they are not from a Voyager, so not sure if they will be compatible. They are from a 1980 KZ1300 injected bike.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1980-Kawasaki-K ... vo&vxp=mtr

[jb32578]

Below is the email for the guy in Malaysia that sold me the fuel pressure regulator, he has 5 left right now and actually mine came in yesterday so it took less than two weeks to get. He sent me an invoice to my email and I paid with Paypal, I ordered it hoping it wasn't a scam and everything worked out so if anyone needs a new fuel pressure regulator here it is.

saafnz@gmail.com

He has a bunch of Kawasaki parts, he sent me a file with all of the parts he has and all I had to do was ask. Hope this helps.

Update......put the new fuel pressure regulator on and now it seems to be flooding. I noticed some fuel spraying out of the rubber boot just after the injector, it's coming out of the bottom of the rubber boot so now I'm trying to figure that out. the fuel pressure regulator and the return check valve in the tank are working, seems to me like it's drowning in fuel and I don't know why.

[trikebldr]

Are you running a stock fuel pump? Most fuel pumps for fuel injection have a 70psi output. I've never tested the function of the regulator against a pump like this, but it might overwhelm it and cause too much pressure to bleed off.

OK, now let's get down to real troubleshooting. TO successfully own one these grand old ladies, you need to know all her systems and have all the basic equipment for doing diagnostics. Or, have a ton of money and know somebody who knows about them. LOL, although it's true!

If you don't already have one, go get a large diameter fuel pressure gauge from your local NAPA store with a properly sized "T" to insert in the fuel like between the regulator and the injector fuel feed "rail". At idle or just cruising along at a steady speed it should read 32psi. When you blip the throttle it should allow the pressure to jump immediately up to 34psi. This is to compensate for no acceleration pump like a carburetor has on automotive engines. This pressure reading will tell you everything you need to know. Also, remove that return fuel line from the check valve into the tank and lt it hang with the end in a small gas can. All that check valve does is prevent the fuel tank from draining backwards through the regulator and injectors slowly as the bike sits not running. All the return line needs is a place to dump it's excess fuel while the engine is running. By doing this you will be totally eliminating any possibility that the check valve or tank opening is causing any problems. If you have 32psi at idle (if you can get it to idle!) and a free-flowing return line, and you're STILL getting flooding,..........GOOD LUCK!

if you're running an aftermarket fuel pump, then maybe place your little fixed-pressure regulator between that pump and the stock pressure regulator and set the fixed-pressure regulator at about 40 psi to help limit the excess output of the aftermarket pump. Maybe the stock regulator and return line can''t bypass enough excess fuel from an aftermarket pump.

if you are anywhere near the Kansas City area I would love to help solve this mystery! I have the parts and equipment for doing anything on these bikes.

BTW, I have one caution about what I said earlier. I suggested hitting each injector many times quickly with 12 volts while it's being soaked in Seafoam. I don't have my supplemental manual handy but I do believe they tell you to put a particular light bulb in series with the 12 volt battery before hitting the injector with the power source. When I find my manual I will post the exact quote from them. The bulb simply limits the current (and voltage) that will surge through the injector. They do not see a full 12 volts in normal operations.

[jb32578]

Again I want to thank everyone that has replied with tips and suggestions, I'm slowly getting this bike to come back to life......been a long (the wife says way too long) drawn out evolution. Just wanted to put some updates to what it's doing and see if anyone has had the same issues.

1. If it sits for more than 2 to 3 hours (regardless of shutting off the fuel), I have a heck of a time getting it started. It appears to be draining fuel through and flooding out but I have no clue how or why it would do that, I literally spend 20 to 30 minutes trying to get it fired up again, I have to leave the fuel off....crank a while, let it rest.....repeat about a million times and then finally it will fire up. I'm pretty sure it's still getting too much fuel, I cleaned the spark plugs....checked the gap....put them back in and in less than a few days of running it off and on half of them are black already. I would like to believe this thing has just sat too long and everything needs broke back in for it to work correctly but I'm starting to think this thing hates me!

2. I cannot figure out why the oil level light on the dash won't go out. I have double and triple checked the oil level/oil filter/every wire I could think of and the light is still on. I checked all fuses, everything is good there. I had a buddy that's a little more knowledgeable with bikes come look at it, I have oil pressure and the right level of oil so he suggested replacing the oil pressure sensor and see if that works.

If anyone has tips or suggestions, please let me know. Thanks in advance.

[Me Again]

As far as the oil l light.The sensor in the pan gets dirty and can't read the level any more so the light comes on constantly
Sometimes a couple of oil changes with a good detergent oil and or a supplement may clean it up good enough.
Otherwise you have to ignore it and trust the site glass .
As for the hard start. It is sounding like the valves need to be set .
Try turning the key on for 5 seconds two or three times to get the gas out of the lines . Then with the throttle wide open hit the starter.
If it is the valves it will get harder to start as the weather cools down until it will not start at all and you will have to wait for spring .

[jb32578]

I'm leaning toward setting the valves but I'm wondering just how hard it really is, I've never done this on a motorcycle so any tips would be much appreciated. I'm so close to getting this thing running right.