DAMN ! ...still unstable/wobble at Interstate speeds

[bobberwi]

Hi Voyager Problem Solvers and Savants,

First, may I say it was a pleasure to finally meet many of you at the Bowling Green AVA Rally. We are truly an amazing "fraternity" of Voyager owners. It was a great time and I both learned a lot and totally enjoyed the whole event (rain and all).

It has been quite a "soap opera of challenges" to resurrect my '92 Voyager to a functional state. The electrical associated systems now function properly and I am even beginning to have some confidence that "we" have evicted those electrical gremlins. I still have a major problem with highway (Interstate speeds) handling stability and bike wobble (not front end shimmy). Here are the present symptoms and what I have done so far to try and solve this critical operating condition:

SYMPTOMS: My bike feels unstable (and unsafe) when I try to maintain Interstate highway speeds (63 mph or greater). The feel of the bike is almost like riding on ice ...a sort of drift/float feeling. This feel/condition is present regardless if I am riding single, double, or pulling a trailer. If speed is not decreased immediately, the bike will often start a wobble which can become progressive in intensity. The best description I can give is a feeling as if the bike's center of gravity was 6 feet above the road and you are trying to ride/balance it on skinny tires. At highway speeds above 54 mph, the bike feels especially vulnerable (that almost ready to tip-over sense) to being blown all over the highway when big trucks pass me, I am within the air turbulance zone following a truck, or I am riding with a modest-moderate cornering wind (5-15 mph wind). This gut-level unstable feeling is completely absent with my Kawasaki 700 LTD (under similar riding conditions) so I don't think it is my imagination at play. The situation is really frustrating me as I had to abort my trip to MT after 380 miles because I was unable to handle Interstate speeds to keep up with my brother on his '92 Goldwing (65-70 mph)... a bit embarrassing too!

WHAT'S BEEN TRIED TO CORRECT THIS ISSUE:

- new Dunlap Elite III tires installed/balanced front (36 psi)and rear (40 psi)
-air shocks inflation front (9 psi), rear (36 psi) settings 2, 3, 4 (presently on #4 setting)
-new progressive fork springs installed

each/all of these changes/adjustments have had no positive resultant to improve the stability issue at highway speed.

At the AVA Rally, Duane did check the feel of the front steering ...he thought it felt right (tight enough...no slop and correct "fall off". He thought he felt slight movement in rear wheel and he suggested possible swing arm bearing issue. (I have not been able to feel that condition after I returned to WI). Per Carl's reccommendation, final drive lube was replaced with 180 cc hypoid GL5 lube. Front fork oil was also replaced when progressive springs were installed. The fork seals showed no evidence of leakage.

UNKNOWN CONSIDERATIONS:

I think the previous owner(s) may have tipped over the bike at some time. I noticed the alignment/orientation of the handlebars was not parallel to the faring (base of instument.radion faring componet. It appeared to indicate a right turn (about 1 inch off parallel) when the bike was traveling in a straight line. I had a dealer re-adjust the handle bars to parallel (visual) with the faring. I am unsure as to the degree of experience/competancy of the dealership service dept. I am assuming they are adequate... I also noticed that there were no air channel tubes from front faring inlets to the dischage faring louvers. I do not know if that has any impact on high speed stability, feel. or handling. The head streeing nut has a "cut-gouge" in it as if previous owner tried to loosen it with a chizel.

The instability seems to get worse when extended riding time is done (1 hour or more). The service manual (and some Voyager owners) suggest that the steering bearing may be too tight(?).

I apologize for the length of this posting. I am hoping that there is an affordable "fix" for this condition. I am on a limited budget, but if correction can be successful at a dealership with less than 3 hr labor charge...I am willing to try it. It is frustrating that the established Kawasaki dealership in Madison, WI has gone out of business so I am a bit uncertain if an experienced Voyager mechanic is even available locally.

Thank you all for your much appreciated thoughts, suggestions, and recommendations.

most sincerely,
Bob Michaels (bobberwi)
Madison, WI
bobberwi53704@yahoo.com

[Rusty - SC Iowa]

From the way you described the way it acts and feels it sounds like it is in the rear end somewhere. Some of what I will suggest you have already done, but if I have a problem I can't isolate I will go back to square one and start the troubleshooting all over again to try and catch something I missed the first time. And yes I've had to go back a third, a fourth, .....

With the bike up on the center stand:
1. Is there any side to side movement of the wheel? Something worn or missing.
2. Can you make the tire wobble? Bearing/seal worn.

With the wheel removed:
1. Clean and inspect wheel hub for any defects, signs of wear.
2. Is the spacer on axle bolt?
3. Can you move the final drive any? Bolts loose, worn parts.
4. Is there any movement in the swing arm?
5. Disconnect the shocks; try to move the swing arm back and forth, also take one up the other down, and vice versa. There shouldn't be any movement. Just a little movement there translates to a lot about two feet aft where the rear axle is.
6. Have someone follow you, at a safe distance, maybe they can see what is happening back there as you are experiencing the drift. Someone familiar with bikes would probably be best.

That's all I have for now, if I think of anything else I'll post it. Keep us informed what you find, and good luck.

[bobberwi]

Thank you, Rusty, for your thoughts and suggestions. I'll again look carefully over the final drive and rear swing arm bearings. This is kinda sounding like another large scale tear down and winter project (burrrr). I'll keep y'all informed if something presents itself as a credible direct cause/effect condition. I do NOT want to start looking for a cliff to push my bike over.... yet...

thanks, Bob

[Rusty - SC Iowa]

Bob, was wondering if you had found anything wrong or if you are still experiencing the same rearend float?

[bobberwi]

Hi Rusty,

There has been some significant forward progress to reduce the unstable drift and side-to-side wobble. Neil (from DeKalb, IL) connected with me and did a test ride. He thought that the problem was caused by a too tighthead bearing...not a too loose one as had been suggested...

I did loosen the lock nut about 3/16 inch and the bike's high speed instability was improved about 85 %. I think I still do not have it exactly where it should be, but I can now hold highway speed (65-70 mph) with reasonable confidence. I guess it will take a few more highway trips before I regain a feeling that I can once again plan for some cross country touring and have the bike perform properly.

Thank you for your message and interest.

Sincerely,
Bobberwi

[Rusty - SC Iowa]

...thought that the problem was caused by a too tight[/u head bearing...not a too loose one as had been suggested...

I did loosen the lock nut about 3/16 inch and the bike's high speed instability was improved about 85 %.

That's good to remember. I didn't know overtightening would cause something like that. Isn't the knowledge base here something?

[Chris near Kansas City]

When checking my '90 several years back trying to rid my bike of the slow speed wobble problem that wasn't really a problem for me, I tightened up the head bearings just a smidge (something like 1/8-1/4 turn of the adjusting nut). Bike was horrible out on the highway. I went back home and undid what I had done.

With the bearings too tight, the fork cannot easily make those ultra microscopic movements that naturally keep the bike running upright in a relatively straight line. The tight bearings make the upper portion of the fork resistant to anything but the more deliberate inputs from the operator and therefore, don't allow the wheel to "follow" the road. So, it goes this direction for a bit, til you correct it, then it goes this way for a bit, til you correct it, and so on. It wore me out just the half day I had it adjusted like that.

Bob, I didn't even think of that when you questioned me in Bowling Green. I was thinking the problem was only when you pulled the trailer. Glad you're making progress on it!

[Highway Rider]

When I first got my bike it appers that it had the same problem as yours. I tightened the steering stem- that did not help- got new tires - that did not help - replaced the swing arm bearings that took care of the problem.

What I found out with the bearing was ---that do to the side pressure on the bearings-- the rollers had created small divites in the side of the bearing that you could only feel if you pushed on the roller cage (in the direction of normal pressure) and rotated it---it was such a small divit you could not see but you could fell it.

[bobberwi]

Hi Highway Rider,

Thank you for your experience/correction suggestion. I think I'll add exam and replacment (if needed) of the swing-arm bearings during the winter maintence plans. The loosening of the head bearing did help a lot but there is still a sense of high speed instability...especially in air flow turbulance (big trucks on interstate) and stiff wind gusts.

Are there any "inside tips" to dis-assembly to examine/replace the swing arm bearings?

thanks much,
Bob Michaels

[KZQuixote]

Hi Chris,

"With the bearings too tight, the fork cannot easily make those ultra microscopic movements that naturally keep the bike running upright in a relatively straight line. The tight bearings make the upper portion of the fork resistant to anything but the more deliberate inputs from the operator and therefore, don't allow the wheel to "follow" the road. So, it goes this direction for a bit, til you correct it, then it goes this way for a bit, til you correct it, and so on...."

Good description! the Symptom is called "Hunt"

It doesn't take too many miles with too tight a steering head to ruin the bearings. I know, I ruined a set in about 200 miles.

KZQuixote

[doug of so fla]

Somewhere on "Wyzard's" website years ago, Don Hinds AKA (The Wyzard) posted a very simple explanation of the wander & wobble of the XII. Steering head bearing to loose = low speed wobble, to tight = highway speed wander.

[tleerhoff]

I used to have a slight float feeling at high speed as well as a bit of not wanting to cross groves easily.

I had Dunlop 3s. After talking to 3 other touring riders who had the same thing and also had Dunlaps, I changed to Avon venom tires. Incredible handling increase. Metzler 880s are also highly rated by some of the riders who also changed.

I don't know if it was a bad year, model, ???? for that tire as I cannot imagine they would be in business if all their tires worked like the ones I had.

Just what I found,

Tim

[Mr Jensee]

I changed from Dunlop 404's to Elite 3's and improved my bike's low speed handling 1000%. Had a terrible low speed wobble of the front end between 35 and 45 mph to the degree, couldn't take even one hand off the bars. I noticed this at take off too. Since the tire change there is none of that anywhere. It might also be noted that the front before the tire change was never balanced. Now it is. Maybe something to do with it, I don't know.