Rebuilding Carbs, Where Do These Go?

[BackTrackBug]

As I was pulling the carbs I Planned on detaching the two clear hoses from the carbs as I wasnt sure where they ran to other than up behind the fuel tank. But they pulled right out as if they werent connected to anything. Are they some kind of venting? Or do they connect to something I cannot see?

Excuse my ignorance. I have rebuild carbs before, but its been more than a handful of years ago and the ones Ive built in the past I do not recall ever coming across tubes like this before. I did look in the manual but for the life of me I can not place them.

Also, anyone have any tips for the best way to safely remove the metal caps? (pictured/

Thank you in advance for any help someone can provide. I bought the bike a week ago. Number 2 and 3 cylinders are not firing so Pulled the right hand side coil and have a new coil, wires and plugs on the way. The carb boots (engine side) could not seal tight so ordered new ones to install and the pilot jet must be dirty because its a pain to start and idle. Figured its best to get everything the way God intended and not abuse and neglect such a fine machine.

[triton28]

Yes you are correct the 2 clear tubes which travel over the top of the lower air box and aim downward to the ground are NOT connected to anything. They are atmospheric vents for the float bowls and face downward to prevent water entry into them.
Carefully drill a small hole in the center of the plug and then you can use the tip of a wood screw to grip the plug for removal. The plug is merely an interference fit onto a shoulder machined into the carb body. You may have to tussle with it but it will come out. Just don't drill too forcefully/fast or too deep as the brass air screw is under it and could be damaged.
An ultrasonic cleaner is the best way to clean those minuscule interior idle passageways.
Good luck with your repairs.
Dave

[BackTrackBug]

Thank you for the quick response. That takes alot of stress off of me now that I know its just venting and I don't have to remove the fuel tank! Well, I hope I don't have to remove it. We will see how installing the carbs go.... Not much room to work with.

Ill hit those caps with a bit of PB Breaker when I pull them. Im going to call around and see what the local mechanics will charge me to use the ultrasonic washer. If its not reasonable I'll just pony up and buy my own. Will a 22 liter be large enough? What size ultrasonic cleaners do most of you guys use? I really don't want to unrack those carbs to fit em in the washer.

[Nails]

I bought a small ultrasonic cleaner -- won't quite submerge a single carb. But I separated the assembly and took the individual carbs mostly apart. Several "loads", and I leave them in this cheap cleaner pretty long.

Note that it's difficult to adjust those jets when on the bike ... but that's what you have to do to adjust them right. The middle carbs don't leave enough room to use a conventional adjuster. I fabricated a tiny offset screwdriver out of an allen wrench (viewtopic.php?p=82091#p82091). It's a PITA to use, but works. I recommend marking the carb body to show where the jets are when (gently!) bottomed out -- I used a Sharpie, but I'll use a Dremel to etch them next time I have to pull the carbs. Then use a dentist's mirror to check/confirm changes made with the tiny offset screwdriver. Make changes just 1/4 turn at a time to avoid getting lost. The whole idea is to avoid having to bottom the jet each time.

Search on "pilot" in "General - Voyager XII (1200 Four)" for many posts about this.

[BackTrackBug]

Great, thank you for excellent tip on the pilot screw adjuster. One more question then I should be out of your hair for awhile. In the pictures I posted below, right below the silver pilot caps ( which were removed today) there are what appears to be brass caps. Im pointing my flat head screw driver at one in the picture. Do these come out too? If so, do I also drill them and remove them same procedure as the silver ones? I wasnt planning on separating the carbs as I was under the impression they were next to impossible to reassemble for some reason. But it looks like Im going to have no choice but to separate them all.

[triton28]

That is a blanking plug for factory drilled passageways I have come to know as a "Welch" plug and unless one has a direct replacement ready to install back into the recess the plug fits into, and a history of having done this previously on some other similar piece of equipment, I would suggest leaving them installed as is. Normally the ultrasonic cleaner and compressed air will get anything that the plug may be covering.
The carbs really are very simple to disassemble and reassemble on/to the rack. The only connections beside the throttle plate operating spindles are the fuel rails and bowl vents. Before doing any disassembly carefully observe and familiarize oneself with how the throttle plate mechanisms interact with each other: 1 to 2; 2 to 3 the main mechanism; and 3 to 4, similar to 1 to 2.
Also, lots of pics help and record any change in the throttle plate adjusting screw positions, if needed, before disassembly.
Be certain to replace the 10 o-rings on the fuel/vent rails as the most recent of this model bike is already 20 years old.
The Tech Center has lots of helpful info.
Dave

[Nails]

I found that the plastic T-connectors in my vent lines were totally rotten through-and-through, and these little pups were ridiculously expensive from MaKa.

^^^ for replacing the o-rings. For one thing, this'll help keep the fuel-line T straight when pushing on the fuel line. This little task is a total PITA; and you'll want to put some vasoline or something on it and then use new, clean-cut fuel line. I use a large roach-clip/hemostat to hold the line.

As with any other repairs on this old bike, consider replacing everything that's plastic or rubber -- except the piston diaphragms. If those leak the carbs won't work, but they can be pricey so handle with care.

[BackTrackBug]

Is there a go to rebuild kit that you more experienced guys use? Everything I see on ebay are just some jets, diaphragm ( in 2 pieces??) And etc. No o rings, no bowl baskets. Im seriously thinking the best move is to ship it to Mr. Carl Leo. Its just that my wife is already crossed eyed about the money Ive spent on it when we are in the midst of remodeling our house. One thing I know I have to spend money on is new tires, so that 300 bucks. Paid $2000 for the bike and want to keep the money I spend on it to a minimal so I dont end up with 5 grand in a 21 year old bike. If it wasn't for remodeling the house I wouldn't have a issue with dumping a couple more thousand in it.

[Nails]

Is there a go to rebuild kit that you more experienced guys use?

It's beyond me why folks replace jets, unless you want to change the jetting. A "kit" for the bowls makes some sense because you should replace the pin and gasket, and carefully check/adjust the float level. Otherwise, just replace the rubber/plastic crap you need. And clean the hell out of it.

Im seriously thinking the best move is to ship it to Mr. Carl Leo.

That can make sense because cleaning and adjusting these CV carbs is a black art. More so if you don't have the ultrasonic cleaner &etc. (And you might need to factor in optometry for your wife.) I did my own because I've messed with too many other CV carbs and because I live at 7800 ft and feel a need to adjust to that. I don't claim expertise in this black art.

If it wasn't for remodeling the house I wouldn't have a issue with dumping a couple more thousand in it.

I hate to break it to you like this, but you just might be perfectly sane.

[Conrad]

My rule of thumb on cv carbs:
When they work correctly, great!!
When they don't,

[GrandpaDenny]

I can highly recommend Carl Leo's expertise on carbs. I just put a set he rebuilt in Gertrude, and OMG what a difference. Who'd'a thunk a 23 year old bike with over 100,000 miles would easily hit 120 mph and still be accelerating? If I wasn't concerned with breaking the speedometer, one of these days I'd find out what her top speed actually is.

I'm not sure, and I don't have the balls (or money) to test this theory, but I suspect the 7500rpm redline might be "a bit" conservative.

[BackTrackBug]

I completely agree on the carb rebuilding Nails. Only thing I wanted to do is change the pin, float needle, and bowl gasket. A good cleaning, check float heights (17mm?), button them back up and take bike the get synced. ( will bench sync them before installing though)
These carbs were operating the bike. But I could never get a 100% seal on the intake manifolds so I bought new ones. It would run really well once it was at operating temps. Well, not really well, but drivable. Super touchy to start , erratic rpms, and everything vacuum leaks and dirty pilot jets do to a engine.
After removing them its evident they're in need of a decent cleaning. But nothing ever critical was wrong with them. The leaky boots would cause my rpms to race about 1500 every time I pulled the clutch in to shift gears. Was really bad on 2nd into 3rd, would have to get to high speed 2nd, let off throttle 100% and let rpm drop as low as it would drop then shift into 3rd. Then I dropped cylinders 2-3.....

Shitty running carbs, and just dropped a coil. Time to start taking big girls' clothes off. And here I am.

I took a chance on a no name coil I found on Amazon for $21. Really not sure if its going to work out but my understanding is that it doesn't matter if its a 1-4 or a 2-3 coil, they are going to fire when the bike tells it too. You can have 1-4 coils on both sides but will all fire correctly? I hope so because as the new coil is a exact match in appearance, there was no specs as far as 1-4 or a 2-3.

So the plan for now is cleaning the carbs, new pin and needle, replace boots, replace vacuum lines, fuel line and filter, clean elec connections while exposed, install the coil, new wire and plugs. Three new sets of brake pads are sitting there waiting too. Bought a pump for the air shocks but they sent a 0-300psi. Waiting on a 0-60psi now. Haven't messed with the shock oil or seals but that will come later. Going to throw Progressives on the back and rebuild the front as needed. Already changed the final drive oil. Havent done any spline or drive maintenance but plan on it when the new rear tire goes on. Changed the oil with Rotella T^ 15-40, but that brings me to my next question...

When my 2-3 coil dropped I was 26 miles from home. It actually was barely perceivable. But I did catch on within a few miles. 1 and 4 exhaust are puffing, 2 and 3 are sucking air. Question is, riding it 26 miles home, is it possible that the unfired gas was getting past the rings and into crank case? I swear it seems to me the oil level ( on center stand ) looks higher. I think I am going to change the oil again before it gets any run time. Just the thought of gas in the oil, in the bearings....cringe. Would driving it 26 miles on 2 dead cylinders hurt it? Its hell getting a bike towed here, just went through it, so took a chance and boogied home.

I still have tires to replace to get the inspection. Hoping they dont flunk my rotors. They pass thickness wise but they looking pretty groovy. And not in the fun way. Ive been bleeding money over it and just want to get passed this initial "pay til ya bleed" phase and get some ride time this summer with a happy bike and safe. Then this winter I can pull the carbs to send to Mr. Leo. I know when they come back my girl will be a proper dance partner and big girl will cut the rug right on by those cutsie guys on their cute lil scooters. While I drink my coffee and listen to the morning news.

Thank you guys for all of the help and experience. I plan on keeping the bike til either me or her dies so want to eventually get her all back like MaKaw birthed her, so Im sure im going to try to pick alot of brains here.

Pictures attached to just show general condition of carbs. New coil has bracket installed. Paid 21 bucks for it, fingers crossed.

[Nails]

I took a chance on a no name coil I found on Amazon for $21. Really not sure if its going to work out but my understanding is that it doesn't matter if its a 1-4 or a 2-3 coil

Yes, the two coils are identical, having a reversible mount (as you surely noticed).

After-market coils, not so much. You'll probably find that the wire caps won't work with your spark-plug wires.

Bought a pump for the air shocks but they sent a 0-300psi. Waiting on a 0-60psi now. ... Going to throw Progressives on the back and rebuild the front as needed.

I think the fuss about over-inflating the shocks is over-stated. I haven't had any problems using a gas-station compressor carefully. I generally over-inflate a little and bleed back to what I want. Hell, when I bought it my bike had some outrageous pressure in the shocks without any damage.

The stock shocks work great with fresh oil. And you can refresh the oil instead of having to replace the whole shock. I'll keep the stock shocks until they start to leak. Put your Progressives in the forks instead.

Would driving it 26 miles on 2 dead cylinders hurt it?

I just did a whole lot more than that, limping and eventually hauling mine back from South Dakota. Guess I'll find out when I get a chance to tear into it.

From your description, I suggest that you get a compression check. That's kinda difficult on these bikes because of the deep sp wells.

[Nails]

I can highly recommend Carl Leo's expertise on carbs. I just put a set he rebuilt in Gertrude, and OMG what a difference.

I've heard nothing but glowing reports from others, but most also say that their gas mileage goes way down. I'm curious whether he rejets to a richer mix. There isn't so much air in the air where I live; and that might not work so well here.

[GrandpaDenny]

I can highly recommend Carl Leo's expertise on carbs. I just put a set he rebuilt in Gertrude, and OMG what a difference.

I've heard nothing but glowing reports from others, but most also say that their gas mileage goes way down. I'm curious whether he rejets to a richer mix. There isn't so much air in the air where I live; and that might not work so well here.

Interesting. My gas mileage has gone way up, and I ride Gertrude like she's a sport tourer. I am definitely into twisting the right wrist a lot. Something I noticed from the time I bought her is that she gets better mileage when I'm wringing her out than at steady highway speeds. As for improvement in gas mileage, she used to get 26mpg running steady freeway speeds. Now she gets in the mid-40s. Of course, her problem was more than just dirty carbs, as we saw the pics of.

[Nails]

Yeah, yours was a mess. Mine is getting that way, too. I can dip into the 30's running 85 -- used to get high 40s just keeping up with traffic. A good-running bike is way more fun.

I definitely need to replace the head due to a cross-threaded sparkplug hole. I'll take a good look around but almost surely have a dead coil. To start with. Or maybe it's something terminal. Dunno.

I may not get to it this whole summer. Tons of other work, and a torn rotator cuff. But my d/s goes fine, to get my two-wheel jonesing out.

[BackTrackBug]

Got the carbs back in. Didn't have new bowl gaskets so took a chance on the existing ones. Ofcourse one of them doesn't seal right, bowl stays wet with gas. The new coil I installed did not remedy the no fire situation on cylinders 2-3. At that point I had to take care of other pressing business so did not trouble shoot it. Im just going to figure out the no fire on 2-3 cylinders then yank carbs again and ship them off to Mr. Leo and be done with the carbs. Any ideas on how to proceed with trouble shooting for the no fire situation ? I really don't want to pull the left side coil off to swap them out to check if it fires then. I have 4 new plugs, new wires, and new coil for 2-3. Im thinking whatever is feeding the right side coil is going to be a issue. Hopefully just a bad connection somewhere. Its the ignitor that powers the coils right? How do I check the ignitor that its powering the 2-3 coil?

[Nails]

I found aftermarket bowl gaskets for a lot less than MaKa, and they actually worked. I posted about it in the General section, where I used to post everything. Yeppers, I had to re-do a bowl gasket once.

The manual lists voltmeter tests for the coils. I think any new coil would be aftermarket, and so they might not actually work. How do you know both middle cylinders aren't firing? It might be too early to surmise a problem with the igniter, but I'd check the continuity of that wire. Did the connector come loose during installation? Is the wire really on the coil's blade right?

I chased a partial misfire for months. Turned out to be a stuck cylinder ring. I still suggesting running compression checks.

[BackTrackBug]

I took a second round on the coil and fixed the issue. The positive side spade needed to be crimped tighter to make good contact with the tab on coil. A oversight on a simple fix. Now both 2 and 3 plug wire is firing off correctly.

I also tuned in the air mixture screws better. Fires right up with minimal choke. I think it's still just a tad bit too lean but it did very well on my test drive today. I can tell the carbs need to be synced though. And the throttle cables adjusted just a bit. Thats a project for the next time I have to work on it. About to start a complete interior repaint so until thats finished I wont have the time to mess with anything.

Sure does get much better gas mileage now! Drove it 25 miles today and the needle is still pegged past full.

New brake pads installed this morning all the way around. Huge difference. Adjusted my rear shocks to 38 and front to 9. ( Im about 190lbs) Rear shocks feel better, not as bouncy. ( Also set rebound to 3 instead of 4) when I first bought it it had about 28 in the front and 15 in the back. Cant believe the front seals didn't blow.
After a 25 mile trip today I did start feeling a little cramped. Im 6'4" and have heard other tall guys say they felt a bit cramped. I don't really ride with the front highway pegs because I feel like I'm sitting in some dern stirrups or something. Was thinking about removing them but I believe I will keep them so I can stretch my legs when I have to.
Thank you everyone for the advice and guidance. This is a great forum and some of you guys are a wealth of information!

[cushman eagle]

We are glad you got her to run so much better without much work
Keep us posted on your progress